Balk question

[tibear]

Delaware,

Here is even more the rulebook:

Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

I don't know what could be more clear. If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by tibear

Delaware,

Here is even more the rulebook:

Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

I don't know what could be more clear. If the pitcher disengages the rubber he MUST separate his hands other wise it is a balk. Where do you see something other than that?

tibear:

There are over 200 mistakes in the rulebook. Until we get a major rewrite, he need to consider how the rules are applied by those who own them. The JEA, J/R, the WUA and both pro schools all agree that the intent of the rule is that the pitcher must separate his hands prior to retaking the rubber.

Tell me, do you make a runner stay within 3 feet of a direct line bewteen the bases? That's what the rule says, but again, that is not how it is interpreted or enforced.

Different posters have given you the correct information. You now have the opportunity to learn something and choose to umpire a basegame as it is intended to be done, or not.

[tibear]

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by tibear

Interesting on how in this case, I'm getting a hard time for trying to apply the rules as written in the rulebook and in other cases was given a hard time for calling the "spirit" of the rule.

The only time I've seen anyone crticized for calling by the "intention of the rule" is when they are mistaken on the intention of the rule.

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk!

Where is "around here?"

Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by tibear

I will let you know that around here, if you disengage the rubber without separating your hands, everyone calls a balk! Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands? Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage? Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

If you need solid proof that the experienced members of this board are giving you the correct interpretation that this is not a balk, this may help. This is the professional interpretation as written by Rick Roder who is the co-author of the Jaska/Roder Manual. The WUA now referrs all rules questions to Rick for clarification.

Pitchers

a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.

b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,

c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.


No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.


Tim.

[GarthB]

MLB, the entity that hires members of the WUA and the owners of the rules, takes it further by not just saying don't penalize it, but that it is not a balk as long as the hands are separated prior to the pitcher re-taking the rubber.

The confusion is understandable given MLB's seeming inability to get a re-write of the rules done. However, members of the rules committe have committed to get it done, piece-meal, if necessary. One member told Evans that he hope to eventually address all the mistakes that Jim had identified.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

Everyone may be taught incorrectly but we try to follow the rulebook and in this case, if you are indeed stepping off the rubber the assumption is that you're not trying to "pick-off" the runner so why not enforce the pitcher's hands?

I don't assume that the pitcher is not going to try to pick the runner off base when the pitcher steps off. On the contrary, I'm especially vigilant for a pick-off move when this occurs.

Originally Posted by tibear

Basically isn't a balk called because the defensive team is doing something to deceive the runner and trying to get an unfair advantage?

No, a balk is called because the pitcher does something which he is prohibited from doing, with the intent to illegally deceive the runner. There is always deception and trickery afoot when it comes to keeping runners from stealing bases, but only the illegal deception is penalized.

Originally Posted by tibear

Isn't that why the rulebook says to separate the hands? This is to ensure the pitcher doesn't try something "sneaky" by stepping off and immediately throwing to a base, without dropping his hands to his side.

No, the rule book says to separate the hands to ensure the pitcher doesn't get back on the rubber with his hands still together for the purposes of a quick pitch. It is perfectly legal to step off the rubber with the pivot foot, then immediately throw to a base. No separation of hands is required. The pitcher becomes equal to a fielder when he disengages the rubber properly. He is only prohibited from simulating a pitch to the plate, as has been pointed out.

[bossman72]

tibear,

It's great you're getting your nose in the rulebook and trying to understand fully what it says. But, as mentioned before, there are over 200 errors in the MLB rulebook.

When posters like bobjenkins and GarthB give you advice, TAKE THE MEDICINE. They know what they're talking about.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Also the way the OBR rule has always read to me, from the wind position the pitcher cannot have any of his non-pivot behind the rubber before he starts his motion. Don't they use that imaginary line of the back edge of the rubber for placement purposes? Now technically wouldn't there be grounds for a balk if the pitcher stepped off legally with his pivot foot, but his non-pivot foot was already behind the rubber?

A pitcher is not restricted from placing his non-pivot behind the rubber while in the windup.

OBR 8.01 Legal Pitching Delivery

9) In the Windup position, the pitcher’s free foot may be on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber, or off to the side of the rubber.

Originally Posted by PWL

I had a situation like this in a game I was playing in a couple of years ago. FWIW, the non-pivot was mostly behind the rubber. The pitcher stepped on the mound with his pivot foot and then barely on with his non-pivot foot. He then stepped back and threw to first from the wind position. I argued for all it's worth that it was balk, but they said it was legal in our rule set. Whatever, that was?

Why was it a balk? Did he step back with the free foot or the pivot foot? Did he simulate his initial motion to pitch as he disengaged?


Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

I do believe you are quoting a new rule that went into effect only a few months ago. I was asking if it woud be a balk under the old way it was written in the rule book.

The rule is essentially the same. The only change is that the pitcher no longer has to keep his free foot within the 24 inch length of the pitching rubber, which was never enforced anyway. It's never been a balk for placing the free foot behind the rubber while in the windup.


Tim.

[tibear]

Well, since everyone here is so ademant that this shouldn't be called a balk, I guess I'm going to have to go back to our local administration and get them to look into it. As I say, around here everyone calls it a balk. I've personally called it only once or twice but other guys call this maybe a dozen times a year.

Its going to be a hard sell because its pretty obvious that the OBR rulebook says the pitcher MUST seperate his hands as he steps off the rubber.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by PWL

FED is somewhat different as the pitcher must step off legally with both feet before he separates his hands. In other words, pivot foot, non-pivot foot, separate hands.

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

I don't think you've missed anything. I think PWL is wrong on this.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

OK, I'm willing to be wrong on this one, but HUH?

Once he steps off with the PIVOT foot, since when do I care what he does with either his other foot OR his hands [as long as he's not simulating a pitching motion]?

Bob- help me out here, have I missed a memo or something?

Exactly. The separating his hands thing is a red herring, since the runner is watching the pitcher's pivot foot for his cue (s). The runner doesn't give a fig what the pitcher's hands are doing.....

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I'm only talking about stepping back off the rubber, not stepping and throwing to a base. This is what was being showed in a meeting. Whatever they show, I try to go by. I thought perhaps it to be a little different than the OBR rule. Anyway, so many of the pitching rules are "compromised". I often work with people that have their own interpretations of what they will call a balk. They is why I have leaned to offer leeway on some of the things that are really balks, but a "don't do that" really works best. I feel sometimes it hasn't been called all year, so the pitcher doesn't know. I work with people that are good umpires, but they could careless about the subtleties of some rules.

I'm not sure what they are showing you at the meetings, but just for the record, here is what the rules say:

Windup Position: "After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position, or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other fielder." (6-1-2)

Set Position: "After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other fielder." (6-1-3)

The only possible interpretation is that he MAY (or may not, logically) throw or feint to a base. He is not required to do this. He can step backwards off the rubber with his pivot foot, and leave his free foot on the rubber, and just stand there like that all he wants.