Three Man Crew Positioning

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

So, to answer my question, is it PU, U1 and U3 as the correct terminology?

For most of the world.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

So, to answer my question, is it PU, U1 and U3 as the correct terminology?

That would be correct. I THINK Fed may use U1 = PU, etc, though since we don't use Fed mechanics here I may well be incorrect.

[tibear]

In this situation where bases empty and sure double, I think the mechanics offered in the Canadian manual make the most sense because the only umpire moving on the play would be U3 who would pickup the runner at second base and bring him to third if neccessary. U1 simply ensures the tag at first and PU stays at the plate. Alot less people running and U3 has lots of time to pick up BR at second.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

For most of the world.

Henny Youngman had nothing on you.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by tibear

In this situation where bases empty and sure double, I think the mechanics offered in the Canadian manual make the most sense because the only umpire moving on the play would be U3 who would pickup the runner at second base and bring him to third if neccessary. U1 simply ensures the tag at first and PU stays at the plate. Alot less people running and U3 has lots of time to pick up BR at second.

Yes, but consider the situation of a botched relay where BR is in motion and continues to 3B. U3 could easily be hung out to dry on this play, which is why whenever U3 moves toward 2B PU moves up toward 3B.

MUCH easier to let U1 pivot in and take BR into 2B on a non-play situation.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Yes, but consider the situation of a botched relay where BR is in motion and continues to 3B. U3 could easily be hung out to dry on this play, which is why whenever U3 moves toward 2B PU moves up toward 3B.

MUCH easier to let U1 pivot in and take BR into 2B on a non-play situation.

On a botched relay, the play should be completely in front of the umpire and he should have lots of time to get from 2nd to 3rd in time to make the call. By watching the ball and runner U3 will know where the play is going to be. At worst U3 will be in the same position as when a runner on 2nd was stealing third.

The only issue you might have is if there is a rundown between 2nd and 3rd. PU and U1 will have to communicate as to who is going out to help U3 and who is covering plate.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by PWL

What.........? Once he gets around second he ain't going back to first.

If you read the post I said a rundown between 2nd and 3rd. Who said anything about the runner going back to first???

[NFump]

I believe he is referring to the fact that U1 isn't doing anything because the runner has advanced past 2nd and thus should be the one to help U3 with the rundown.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by tibear

On a botched relay, the play should be completely in front of the umpire and he should have lots of time to get from 2nd to 3rd in time to make the call. By watching the ball and runner U3 will know where the play is going to be. At worst U3 will be in the same position as when a runner on 2nd was stealing third.

The only issue you might have is if there is a rundown between 2nd and 3rd. PU and U1 will have to communicate as to who is going out to help U3 and who is covering plate.

Sure, play will be in front of U3, as will BR for about two seconds (That whooshing sound is him blowing past as you stop, reverse & try to catch up). Now we have a foot race with U3 losing badly - better hope PU bails him out.

Use the benefits of three umpires. Let U1 pivot in & take BR to 2B when there is no play. Should U3 feel there is a potential play, verbal & hand signal to 'push off' & crew rotates.

This leaves umpires on both sides of any potential play without needless rotating or sprinting to cover a botched play.

Now I have only been doing this for 30 years and have seen mechanics come & go. Trust me, this works.

Note: Should a crew be working 3 umpire with little chance for pre-brief &/or training (IE: a single game) by all means rotate in this situation ALWAYS as it reduces the opportunity for confusion.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Sure, play will be in front of U3, as will BR for about two seconds (That whooshing sound is him blowing past as you stop, reverse & try to catch up). Now we have a foot race with U3 losing badly - better hope PU bails him out.

I don't think U3 will be 10 feet from second base when he discovers the BR is rounding second and heading for third, more likely half or slightly more between third and second. This would give U3 plenty of time to get back to third to make the call. If you can't then you shouldn't be on the field.

Regardless, being from Canada we must follow the guidelines specified in the positioning manual because if all the umpires are doing different things your sure to screw up.

That's why there should always be a pre-game conference to discuss these scenarios.

[orioles35]

This was my point...why have U1 (the first base ump) STAY at first? First base is a non-issue after it's been touched. This makes the mechanics EXACTLY like the two-man mechanics would be on a double to the outfield (watch the touch, pivot and take R1 to 2nd). U2 and U3 stay where they are. Why have U2 GUESS where to go when he doesn't have to?

FYI: We had a pregame conference about this and had THREE different opinions about what should happen. One guy suggested in most situation we stay in between the bases and figure out where to go as the play develops. My comment was, "So we've got three umpires out here and NONE of us should be actually positioned AT a base?"

[tibear]

oriole,

I see your point but as stated earlier that isn't the official procedure so to make sure everyone does the same thing, we all follow the manual which has U1 staying at first and U3 moving between 2nd and 3rd.

I don't see a big deal because if your working a 2 man system, in the same situation U1 will follow the BR right around to third if necessary so the situation of keeping up with the runner is even worse. In the three man scenario in all likelihood U3 has a better chance of getting to 2nd than U1 because U1 has to wait for the tag of first.

Either way your having an umpire(U1 or U3) standing do basically nothing, its just which guy has the better chance of getting to 2nd on a close play. Personally, I think it is U3.

[ozzy6900]

This is turning into Third World Umpiring, guys.

With no one on and a sure hit to the outfield, U3 moves in. The PU rotates up the third base line and after the touch of first, U1 goes mid-way to the plate. Now you have an umpire waiting for the runner.

With no one on, any fly ball has to have an umpire on the ball. The opposite base umpire comes in and the PU goes to the missing side. The umpire that went out to cover the ball then hustles back to cover the plate.

For those who have a problem with U3 coming in on the sure hit, I'm 53 years old, 255 lbs, have a heart condition, missing parts from my lower back, an active hernia and I make it to second base before the runner every time! If the BR tries to stretch it to third, my PU should be there (I always glance over to verify he's there). In the rare occasion that my PU took a nap, a simple angle toward the third base line puts me into position for the play at third. Of course, my PU better not show up now!

[tibear]

I don't see a problem with any of these procedures as long as all of the umpires are on the same page.

That's why there are situation position manuals to get away of the arguing about which procedure is best.

Simply go with whatever is official in your area and HAVE A PRE-GAME CONFERENCE to go over specifics.

As I said, in Canada we don't rotate in this situation, only have U3 moving between 2nd and 3rd. However, other associations may have different procedures which work just as well.

[LMan]

My association says you're wrong.