Whoa was I out of position...

[Tim C]

SDS:

Don't take a simple statement and run with it like a smelly mackeral.

"Moving to postion" is far different that "takling off running."

I follow the exact process as CoachJM has documented.

Sometimes it is hard for some of us to say "I was wrong" . . . It is clear to me that the quotation by CoachJM means to physically MOVE not just think it through.

Regards,

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JM,

"Begin his reaction" does not mean "take off running" the way I see it. Sure, I begin my reaction by saying to myself, "he's going, now what?" There may not be a play at 3rd at all. The catcher may fake a throw to 3rd, then throw to get the trail runner at 2nd. I see this happen all the time. I have taken at the most, 1 false step toward 3rd, and can recover in time to get a good position for the play at 2nd. If I take off with the runner, I'm guaranteed to look like an idiot when the play ends up being at 2nd base.

Steve,

If your not moving to the 45' line angle the on;y part of the play your going to see is R2's back side.

[mbyron]

The main source of concern with moving for the angle on the play at 3B is being out of position for a ball hit to the infield. (I don't buy a throw to 2B: if F2 has a play, it's FAR more likely on R2 stealing 3rd than R1 stealing 2nd, but even if so, see below.)

But think about it: in the time of a pitch and throw down, how far will you get? 3 steps? 5? Not a lot, and the direction is crucial: I think Rich pointed out you move to the midpoint of the baseline between 3B and HP to have the optimal angle, which does take you out of the working area.

If the ball IS hit, you will have time to move back into the working area for the play at 1B, and in any case your angle will be approximately correct for that call.

As we know, 2-man mechanics is a system of compromises. We prioritize this play: 1. cover steal at 3B, where the throw is most likely and the angle is worst from C; 2. return to working area in case of a batted ball. Oh yeah, and don't let the batted ball hit you!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Steve,

If your not moving to the 45' line angle the on;y part of the play your going to see is R2's back side.

That's exactly where I move to, toward the midpoint between 3rd and home. I anticipate moving there when the runner goes. I glance over my shoulder to see him go. You always here someone yell, "he's going." In the split second between the runner going and the catcher catching the ball, you can't tell me that you get that much of a better jump. I'm not talking about standing there flat-footed and dumbfounded while the catcher throws to 3rd, I'm just saying that I do not fully commit to 3rd base until I'm sure that the play is going there.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

BTW- The OP only mentioned a R2. Nothing was mentioned about a R1.

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Tim & Steve,

From the PBUC "Two-Umpire" Manual (original emphasis):



JM

Yep. That's what we were taught. Thanks for reminding me that the mechanic is in the manual. I can cancel my order for the Canadian version.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Yep. That's what we were taught. Thanks for reminding me that the mechanic is in the manual. I can cancel my order for the Canadian version.

Maybe you're just slow, and need the extra half a second to get to your position. I don't need the extra jump, myself.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Maybe you're just slow, and need the extra half a second to get to your position. I don't need the extra jump, myself.

No. We just perform mechanics as properly taught.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

[BigUmp56]

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Tim C

SDS:

Don't take a simple statement and run with it like a smelly mackeral.

"Moving to postion" is far different that "takling off running."

"Begin his reaction" is far different than "Moving to position."

The PBUC manual makes no mention of "moving to position" prior to the ball being caught. It says to "begin your reaction."

Well, no sh*t. We all begin our reaction, otherwise we would, as SoCal said, be looking up the rear-end of the runner.

I begin my reaction when I know the runner is going. I get ready to pounce into action, weight on the balls of my feet, ready to push off with my left foot at a perfect angle. I know the exact spot I'm going to run to. By instinct, I know when to turn into the play and set. Voila, I'm right there.

But take off willy-nilly before the ball reaches the catcher? Never.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Are you still moving when the ball gets there? I know for a fact that it is hard to get that far and be set to make a call.

No. See above post.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

You apparently misread my post. I didn't say I thought they dumbed down the mechanics, I asked if they did. And I asked only because I take you at your word as to their experience and I was curious why a pro wouldn't teach the way he was taught. That's all.

On to a basketball game.

[TCump84]

I would like to say, for the Benefit of the board, I attended umpire school this year, and also was sent to PBUC. We were taught to move towards third when the runner takes off by checking over our right shoulder, gain the most distance and best angle possible, and then if the ball is put in play react accordingly to the batted ball. Hope this helps.