Pitch count strategy in Little League

[mick]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Look for LL to outlaw the curveball in the coming years as well at the Majors level and below.

TussAgee11,
I can't imagine that happenin'.
Defining a curve ball would be difficult.

• flick of the wrist, the palm
• amount of break
• natural movement
• spinning pitches that don't break

Don't want that responsibility on an umpire. Put it on parents, coaches and leagues.
mick

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by PWL

I don't know if you remember a pitcher named Jimmy Jones from Thomas Jefferson High School in Dallas in the mid 80's. He was coached by one of the most obnoxious high school coaches, Gerald Turner. Jones once pitched every inning in a seventeen inning loss to Texas (Texarkanana) High School. that he eventually lost. He eventually was drafted in the first round and signed by the Padres (not sure of the team).

He threw 286 pitches that game. The next day against the same team, he went out to warm up and make throws from short stop and he couldn't even throw the ball half way across the infield no matter how hard he tried. He just sat out that day. He had a serviceable career, but nothing like quite possibly could have been. He still plays in the mens leagues, but you would be hard pressed to tell he was a one time number draft pick.

I am not suggesting there should be NO limitations on pitchers; certainly, I understand that overthrowing can lead to injury. I am suggesting, however, that Little League's switch to a pitch count limit instead of inning count limit is a fix for something that is NOT broken.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Look for LL to outlaw the curveball in the coming years as well at the Majors level and below.

I would like to see how LLB will perform this ?

[ozzy6900]

LL can't properly manage the MPR rule as proved by many of the Regional games (and the complaints on these boards). What makes you all think that a Pitch Count rule will be managed correctly?

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by PWL

I'd like to see the day they outlaw the rising fastball.......

Well, dumb as LL has become over the fast few years...i could see that happening. They would claim "throwing fastballs puts tremoedous strains on the arm, therefor, for our player safety, we do not allow the fast ball to be thrown. so many rules LL has has taken the fun out of the game.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Well, dumb as LL has become over the fast few years...i could see that happening. They would claim "throwing fastballs puts tremoedous strains on the arm, therefor, for our player safety, we do not allow the fast ball to be thrown. so many rules LL has has taken the fun out of the game.

The breeze you feel is yet another one whizzing over your head.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GarthB

The breeze you feel is yet another one whizzing over your head.

Yabut....is it rising over his head too?

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

LL can't properly manage the MPR rule as proved by many of the Regional games (and the complaints on these boards). What makes you all think that a Pitch Count rule will be managed correctly?

LL doesn't manage the MPR rule, it's up to the coaches to deal with it (or not). It's fine the way it's implemented, and only bonehead managers get caught with their shorts down. Unfortunetly there's plenty of those to go around.

As for the pitch count rule, I worked in one league that used it, and it worked out great. Umpires had nothing do with it, the scorekeeper dealt with it soley. I've seen plenty of kids hurt by throwing lots of pitches. It makes the managers really manage their pitching staff, and develop more players.

And Dave, as for documentation to prove that 100+ pitches is more injurious than 60, um, is common sense not good enough? 100>60. This is LL, and I've seen 70 pitch innings, and lots of clueless managers. It's to protect the kids against these morons.

As for the curveball, no one's going to outlaw it. Nor the slider or screwball. And for one, simple reason: You can't define it. That's a non-issue folks.

[umpduck11]

The American Journal of Sports Medicine 30:463-468 (2002)
© 2002 American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine

Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
Stephen Lyman, PhD*, Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD*,, James R. Andrews, MD* and E. David Osinski, MA
* American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, Alabama
American Baseball Foundation, Birmingham, Alabama

Address correspondence and reprint requests to Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD, American Sports Medicine Institute, 1313 13th Street South, Birmingham, AL 35205


Background: Joint pain is thought to be an early sign of injury to a pitcher.

Objective: To evaluate the association between pitch counts, pitch types, and pitching mechanics and shoulder and elbow pain in young pitchers.

Study Design: Prospective cohort study.

Methods: Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used.

Results: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain.

Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.






This article has been cited by other articles: (Search Google Scholar for Other Citing Articles)

[kylejt]

[QUOTE=umpduck11

Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.

[/QUOTE]

Hey, I agree with the conclusion. I just disagree with being able to implement some sort of ban. To prove my point: In 50 words, or less, try to put into words a 1) definition of a curveball, and 2) a way for an umpire to determine if this pitch is being thrown.

GFL

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Hey, I agree with the conclusion. I just disagree with being able to implement some sort of ban. To prove my point: In 50 words, or less, try to put into words a 1) definition of a curveball, and 2) a way for an umpire to determine if this pitch is being thrown.

GFL

Who said anything about banning curve balls ? Dr. James Andrews, whom I'm
sure most here have heard of, has done extensive studies on youth pitchers,
as explained in my previous post. All he said, (that I saw), was that "Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches.." , and that there was a corrolation
between arm pain and the number of pitches thrown in a game and in a season.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I don't know if you remember a pitcher named Jimmy Jones from Thomas Jefferson High School in Dallas in the mid 80's. He was coached by one of the most obnoxious high school coaches, Gerald Turner. Jones once pitched every inning in a seventeen inning loss to Texas (Texarkanana) High School. that he eventually lost. He eventually was drafted in the first round and signed by the Padres (not sure of the team).

He threw 286 pitches that game. The next day against the same team, he went out to warm up and make throws from short stop and he couldn't even throw the ball half way across the infield no matter how hard he tried. He just sat out that day. He had a serviceable career, but nothing like quite possibly could have been. He still plays in the mens leagues, but you would be hard pressed to tell he was a one time number draft pick.

You are right, it was the Padres. He was expected to do great things, but never did really amount to much. I never figured out why. Now I'm beginning to understand. 286 pitches is definitely sadistic, bordering on criminal.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I guess I just don't get. Little League already has inning limits in place, and I don't see any persuasive reason why gaining the precision of pitch limits instead of inning limits will save Timmy's arm from being abused.

I predict the new pitch count rule will cause some pretty serious regular season problems in leagues that are run mostly by, if you'll excuse the expression, people who don't cypher all that good. I tink they should offer it as an optional rule, not mandate it from on high after the fairly limited testing they've done.

DH has it right. This is going to be an administrative nightmare.

I work games with official scorers who can't decipher a pinch hitter, much less count pitches.

Ace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

DH has it right. This is going to be an administrative nightmare.

I work games with official scorers who can't decipher a pinch hitter, much less count pitches.

Ace

In the league I've seen pitch counts used in, the the manager or a bench coach has the pitch count clicker. I wouldn't dream of burdening the official scorer, who has enough responsibility to start with. This is up to the coaching staff to handle.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by kylejt

As for the pitch count rule, I worked in one league that used it, and it worked out great. Umpires had nothing do with it, the scorekeeper dealt with it soley. I've seen plenty of kids hurt by throwing lots of pitches. It makes the managers really manage their pitching staff, and develop more players.

What about those leagues that are so poorly staffed they can't put independent scorekeepers on their games? You're going to dump this new chore on the mom who's already making a mockery of the scorebook?

Anecdotal statements like "I've seen plenty of kids hurt by throwing lots of pitches" are unhelpful. What is "hurt" - they had to take Tylenol the next day for a sore arm? What is "lots of pitches?" What if I say "I've seen lots of kids throw what you think are lots of pitches and they were fine." Is the argument a tie?

And Dave, as for documentation to prove that 100+ pitches is more injurious than 60, um, is common sense not good enough? 100>60. This is LL, and I've seen 70 pitch innings, and lots of clueless managers. It's to protect the kids against these morons.

Well, 60>50, let's go to 50. 50>40, let's go to 40. Hey - let's require no more than 20 pitches in a game, and that way every kid can pitch in the game! That's the ticket!

Where are these 13 yearold invalids moping around in the "Convalescent Home for Little League Pitchers who Threw Too Many Pitches" you guys are so anxious to save? If you're going to base your argument on anecdotal "common sense" arguments, then I will counter it with the same - I've seen hundreds of kids go through Little League pitching within existing pitching limitations, and they went on to play higher levels, including high school, where the coaches were free to REALLY abuse their arms, and they all lived happily ever after. So there.

Little League isn't citing any injury statistics to support this rule change because there aren't any, plain and simple. It just sounds like a good rule to pass. It's cheap too - all you have to pay for to implement it are a few of those cheap little clickers.

Judging from last night's LLWS game, Little League needs an HBP limit rule worse than they need a pitch-count limit. You want a REAL safety rule to get behind? How about mandatory facemasks on batting helmets? We were a fraction of an inch away from catastrophe, live on national TV, in a LLWS game this weekend that would have been averted had the batter been wearing a helmet with a facemask.

But that one would cost some money to implement, wouldn't it?