Correctable Error?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by lawump

First, this play cannot result in an "appeal" by the defense (as that term is defined by J/R and JEA). An "appeal" can only be for (a) missing a base (including home plate) (b) improperly re-touching a base (tag-ups) or (c) batting out of order. None of those occured in this situation, so the defense cannot "appeal".

But there is a possible BOO here because the batter never completed his time at bat per 6.04. He was not put out, nor did he become a runner because he did not fulfill any part of rules 6.08 and 6.09. So if B2 completes B1's time at bat, shouldnt B1 be declared out after a proper appeal? In this case, B2 would now become the proper batter with R2 and R3 and 2 outs.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, just got involved in this one.

Age of players doesn't matter (but they are 9 and 10).

Bases Loaded -- One Out!

Pitcher balks,

All runners advance BUT batter also jogs to first.

No one notices (I know bad, but it is what happened):

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

He calls time and returns (illegal R1) to bat:

TD comes out of crowd and says after a pitch was thrown the error cannot be corrected and over rules the PU placing (Batter) R1 back to first.

Any takers?

Regards

TEE, your thread is definitely a 9.01c ruling.

First I agree with another poster. THE TD has no business being on the playing field UNLESS he is asked to. From the thread he wasn't asked to, he took it upon himself to interject in the game. Therefore, I ignore whatever he said.

I disagree with the others as far as what I would do. I would leave things as they are:

Why!

I would treat it similar to an appeal play. If a runner misses a base and the defense does not appeal before the next pitch or play - All bets off.

The aforementioned thread is similar. As soon as the defense saw B1 jogging to first on the balk call, they should have asked for time and questioned the umpires at that point.

Here we have 2 pitches thrown and the defense still has said nothing so I would leave B1 at first and continue. I believe it is said that the particpants should be aware of the rules ala the IF situation.

Pete Booth

[lawump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

But there is a possible BOO here because the batter never completed his time at bat per 6.04. He was not put out, nor did he become a runner because he did not fulfill any part of rules 6.08 and 6.09. So if B2 completes B1's time at bat, shouldnt B1 be declared out after a proper appeal? In this case, B2 would now become the proper batter with R2 and R3 and 2 outs.

No...the umpire's screwed up and "awarded" B1 first...we all know that this is wrong...however, I would argue that BOO can not occur as a result of an umpire improperly awarding a batter first.

Can BOO occur when a batter is "awarded" first on a base-on-balls when only three pitches have been pitched? No. Its a clear mistake by the umpire. At most the count can only be 3-0. The umpire has misapplied the rule for base-on-balls and awarded a batter first base in violation of the rules which require 4 "balls". I don't believe a BOO can now occur. The defense must "protest", which layman would label an "appeal", but it is not (for the reasons set forth in my first post on this thread).

The defense had their shot: protest before the next pitch, play or attempted play. When they failed to do so, B1 was now legally R1 and B2 is now properly at-bat.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Why!

I would treat it similar to an appeal play. If a runner misses a base and the defense does not appeal before the next pitch or play - All bets off.

The aforementioned thread is similar. As soon as the defense saw B1 jogging to first on the balk call, they should have asked for time and questioned the umpires at that point.

Here we have 2 pitches thrown and the defense still has said nothing so I would leave B1 at first and continue. I believe it is said that the particpants should be aware of the rules ala the IF situation.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I agree except the defense must "protest" properly not "appeal". This is not an appealable play, rather it is a protestable play.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by lawump

No...the umpire's screwed up and "awarded" B1 first...we all know that this is wrong...however, I would argue that BOO can not occur as a result of an umpire improperly awarding a batter first.

I was taking the OP as B1 just went to first, not that he was awarded first. I agree with you if PU erroneously awarded B1 on a balk, but I really can't imagine that being the case. I think it's more likely that PU just didn't notice the batter going to first.

If PU did award the batter first base in this sitch... he should be next behind the woodshed after the TD.

[mcrowder]

I'm flummoxed trying to understand why anyone would assume from the OP that PU awarded anything. I suppose if that was actually the case, we can't BOO him, and probably we've gone past the point where he can be removed from the base (protest too late and all that).

But this was (to my reading) NOT a case where an umpire erred. Inattentive? Yes. Failed to preventatively umpire? Yes. Buy's the round that night? YES. But what error did he make other than not noticing the wrong batter at the plate.

This can truly be simplified down to - get the runner off the base and either A) let the two pitches count, with all that implies, or B) wipe out the pitches.

Your logic that the runner can't be removed because the defense didn't protest would also mean that a team whose basecoach stepped his way onto first base (or THIRD base!) would be a brand spanking new legitimate runner if he managed to stand there without defense noticing for just 1 pitch. That's obscene.

And think about the interest of fairness here. If anyone erred here, it was the batter for getting on base when he didn't belong. Leaving him there doesn't ring as "fair". Nullifying the pitches doesn't seem fair to the defense ... after all, they didn't do anything wrong. Use 9.01c to at least get that batter off the base. I can live with either solution on the 2 pitches.

And thank the baseball gods that the improper batter didn't hit one of those pitches or get walked (with bases improperly loaded) before this was noticed.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OK, just got involved in this one.

Age of players doesn't matter (but they are 9 and 10).

Bases Loaded -- One Out!

Pitcher balks,

All runners advance BUT batter also jogs to first.

No one notices (I know bad, but it is what happened):

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

He calls time and returns (illegal R1) to bat:

TD comes out of crowd and says after a pitch was thrown the error cannot be corrected and over rules the PU placing (Batter) R1 back to first.

Any takers?

Regards

My God! I can't even imagine this happening in one of my games but I'll play the part of the sleeping PU.

Me - "Time" I go to my partner (who was also sleeping) and discuss what we are going to do now.

Me - "You! (pointing to the 'illegal runner') Back to the box!"

Defensive coach - "What's going on?"

Me - "Here's the deal, coach... I screwed up! Blah, blah, blah"

Defensive coach - "You can,t..."

Me - "Stop right there coach. I'm not the only one who was asleep at the switch so I don't want to hear it. This is what is happening and that is that. Please go back to your dugout"

TD comes out of the stands and starts his serenade.

Me - "Mr. TD your input is not needed here nor is it required. When I need you for something, I shall call for you."

Send the "incorrect batter" back to the on deck area, make sure that the runners are where they are supposed to be, put the original batter in the box with the count at the time of the balk, remind my partner that we need to be awake for this one, suck it up and get on with the game. And oh yes, be prepared for an onslaught of comments from everyone in the stands - again, suck it up!

[Tim C]

Great stuff guys:

First, the PU is like 14 or 15 years old . . .

Second, the TD entered the field without being asked . . .

Third, "Umpires asleep at the wheel:"

Going back to MY OWN game journals the "Great Tee" once did the following:

No outs,
R1
Count of 1-1 on batter.

Pitch comes as R1 is stealing second,

PU (me) calls the pitch a strike . . . catcher pops up and throws,

Ball sails through F6 into CF, R1 tries to advance, to third.

R1 is out at third and we all return to normal.

I look at my "indiclickercounter" and see the count of 1-2.

Next pitch slices the center of the strike zone and I give it the BIG "Hike Three."

Batter looks at me and says: "That was the first pitch too me!"

The last batter thought the "second" strike was strike three and went to the dugout during the plays on R1.

So Tee thinks: "Hmm, how can I get out of this one?"

So I just call "Time" and bring back the correct batter, ignore the pitch to the "incorrect batter" and puff out my chest like I knew what I was doing.

Any umpire can, in fact, fall asleep at the wheel.


Regards,

[SanDiegoSteve]

I can sure understand one umpire falling asleep at the wheel at any given time. But both umpires at the same time? How could they both not have noticed that the batter ran to first base on a balk call? Incompetent boobs!

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by PWL

How are you going to say he batted out of order?

Batting out of turn? I Think everyone on the feild was asleep during this game for that to happen

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I can sure understand one umpire falling asleep at the wheel at any given time. But both umpires at the same time? How could they both not have noticed that the batter ran to first base on a balk call?

eeek. Steve i agree. This musta been a boring game or something

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

After two pitches are thrown the PU recognizes that the bases are still juiced and figures out what happened.

How about this....on the second pitch the batter hits a pop up. Infield fly is called, and the ball falls uncaught, no runners advance or are put out. As the next batter is coming to the plate the other team's manager points out the "illegal" R1. What now?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by LDUB

How about this....on the second pitch the batter hits a pop up. Infield fly is called, and the ball falls uncaught, no runners advance or are put out. As the next batter is coming to the plate the other team's manager points out the "illegal" R1. What now?

Hmmm... I guess B1 is out on infield fly, 'illegal R1 is out for BOO, the half inning is over and R3 leads off next time around?

[orioles35]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Incompetent boobs!

......(oYo)

[DG]

Good discussion. I'm in the 9.01C do-over camp. Everybody screwed up, PU, BU, Defensive coach, Catcher, Pitcher, well almost everybody, Offensive coach may have noticed and said nothing, but more likely he screwed up too.

TD needs to go back to wherever he came from.

[UMP25]

Tim,

Because the batter improperly on first had not yet completed his at-bat--he still should be up--I would remove him from first and return the runners to the bases they were on at the time the balk was called. I would think a little 9.01(c) and "common sense and fair play" would justify such a move.