Missing Little League thread

[Carl Childress]

Maybe I'm blind: Some of the coaches think so anyway.

I wrote about the plate umpire in yesterday's LL regional game between IA and MO.

Several people responded.

Now, I can't find the thread.

What up?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Maybe I'm blind: Some of the coaches think so anyway.

I wrote about the plate umpire in yesterday's LL regional game between IA and MO.

Several people responded.

Now, I can't find the thread.

What up?

My guess is that Garth (as the thread starter) deleted it.

[spots101]

I guess he finally found something to howl about.

[aceholleran]

Well, what happened?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Maybe I'm blind: Some of the coaches think so anyway.

I wrote about the plate umpire in yesterday's LL regional game between IA and MO.

Several people responded.

Now, I can't find the thread.

What up?

More importantly, Carl:

I just read your most recent article on the paid side of the site. You said "You can't see [the check swing] in C."

Are you really perpetuating that myth? Because an umpire most certainly can tell if a person offered at a pitch from just about anywhere (except home plate when tracking a pitch).

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

More importantly, Carl:

I just read your most recent article on the paid side of the site. You said "You can't see [the check swing] in C."

Are you really perpetuating that myth? Because an umpire most certainly can tell if a person offered at a pitch from just about anywhere (except home plate when tracking a pitch).

My, my, every time I think you're....

You can always tell if a batter swung at a pitch: from the stands, from centerfield bleachers, from Aunt Gertrude's patio in Manila. That would include C.

High pitch, catcher jumps up, batter swings, but the PU doesn't see it because of the catcher. Easy: Yes, he went.

What you cannot when you're in C tell is whether a batter checked his swing. You know that, every good umpikre knows that. PBUC knows that: In a three-man crew, the "Did he go?" is asked of the umpire on the line, regardless of handedness. PBUC, unlike Fronhesier, doesn't want an umpire in the infield ruling on half swings.

I'm glad you're reading my articles. I didn't know you were a subscriber.

BTW: I'm going to start the LL umpire thread again. That one won't be deleted.

I suppose there were just too many compliments about LL umpires.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

High pitch, catcher jumps up, batter swings, but the PU doesn't see it because of the catcher. Easy: Yes, he went.

Easy for whom - PU or BU? That's exactly the call that caused the one and only significant argument I had with a high school coach this year, and the ferocity of the argument was DIRECTLY attributable to the coach's endorsement of the myth that a BU in C "can't see that."

I agree with Rich, if you are perpetuating that myth, you should revisit your position on the issue.

What you cannot when you're in C tell is whether a batter checked his swing. You know that, every good umpikre knows that. PBUC knows that: In a three-man crew, the "Did he go?" is asked of the umpire on the line, regardless of handedness. PBUC, unlike Fronhesier, doesn't want an umpire in the infield ruling on half swings.

That's something of a copout. We're talking two-man crews, not the PBUC standard 3-man crew mechanic. Beyond that, where do you get the idea that PBUC says the appropriate umpire is ALWAYS the umpire on the line? My copy of the PBUC Manual doesn't say that at all; it says, instead:

If the crew is working with three umpires, the plate umpire shall always ask for help from the first base umpire with a right-handed batter at bat and shall ask for help from the third base umpire with a left-handed batter at bat.

If the batter is lefthanded, you go to the third base umpire. If there's an R1, then that third base umpire is going to be in C position.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Easy for whom - PU or BU? That's exactly the call that caused the one and only significant argument I had with a high school coach this year, and the ferocity of the argument was DIRECTLY attributable to the coach's endorsement of the myth that a BU in C "can't see that."

It ain't a "myth" just because you and Fronhesier think it's not true. Take a poll of the umpires in your association. See how many agree with you: "Dave, I just love to judge half swings from B or C."

If you had an argument with a high school coach over a half-swing you called a ball, tha's your fault, not his. You don't have to put the field umpire on the spot. The "appeal" is optional.

I teach my FED umpires always to ask for help if there's an umpire on the line. If there's not, I simply repeat my call.

Of course, professional coaches where I call don't muck with me, so that may not mean much.

[Tim C]

CC:

ANY umpire who says you can't call a checked/unchecked swing from "C" either does not understand the rule or is too coward to make the call.

I have said this for my entire career.

If this makes me in the Hensley/Fronheiser camp, so be it.

I simply disagree with your arguement.

If you are continuing to spread the myth then I would hope you would rethink your position.

Regards,

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by spots101

I guess he finally found something to howl about.

No, on the contrary. I started the thread in a sincere effort to understand LL umpiring, especially the accepted strike zone at the 12 year old level and any mandated mechanics the might make umpires look odd to those of us who do not work Little League.

Amazingly the thread remained civil among the so-called Big Dogs with many compliments showered on the LL umpires. Unfortunately a couple others decided to use the thread to wail about imagined intent and flail at unwritten posts.

I decided that if they wanted to continue their attacks, they could do so in their own threads.

I regret that some good posts by Carl, Rich and others had to be tossed with the "bath water."

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Tim C

CC:

ANY umpire who says you can't call a checked/unchecked swing from "C" either does not understand the rule or is too coward to make the call.

I have said this for my entire career.

If this makes me in the Hensley/Fronheiser camp, so be it.

I simply disagree with your arguement.

If you are continuing to spread the myth then I would hope you would rethink your position.

Regards,

It seems to me you have your topic for a new Strikes & Outs column. Then, I could reply - and we'd both make money.

Amazing: I'm been following the message boards for years, and this is the first time I remember umpires claiming it's easy to call half swings from the infield.

Tee: What a lot of nonsense!

Anybody can call a swing - from anywhere. It's the close, maybe yes, maybe no, swing that needs an angle, perspective.

I don't care how much you, Hensley, and The Fron argue, there is simply NO angle when you're looking head on, square to the plate.

Good Lord. I suggest that the pick-off at first is easier to call from C because the umpire can get a better angle. Everybody goes ballistic.

I suggest there's no angle. Three big dogs goes ballistic.

Amazing!

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

It ain't a "myth" just because you and Fronhesier think it's not true. Take a poll of the umpires in your association. See how many agree with you: "Dave, I just love to judge half swings from B or C."

I have. The old guys, like you, perpetuate the myth. Those with more modern training agree that, while it may not be the best angle available, the angle from B or C is still better than no view, which is what PU has when a catcher pops up on him as the batter starts a swing. The more recently trained umpires also agree, in large measure, that the pro mechanic - always check upon request - is preferable to refusing to check, as allowed in FED, irrespective of your partner's positioning.

If you had an argument with a high school coach over a half-swing you called a ball, tha's your fault, not his. You don't have to put the field umpire on the spot. The "appeal" is optional.

The call that began my argument was my going to a partner in C for help, because the catcher popped up on me and completely blocked my view of the batter's "finish." I saw him start; there was no way I could tell if he checked. My partner called the strike, and in postgame discussion was fully supportive of what I did and why. We both had the same reaction to the coach's histrionics - that he was simply being a rat.

[GarthB]

A ML umpire, getting into a debate about what can be seen from B and C, once told us that he didn't watch the bat to determine if a batter "went". He said, "The rule isn't about position of the bat, but the batter's intent. The batter's body will tell you his intent better than his hands or bat. Watch his hips and torso, watch if he "unscrews". If he does, he went."

[briancurtin]

^ bingo. thats what i do, and its what works for me.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Tee: What a lot of nonsense!

Anybody can call a swing - from anywhere. It's the close, maybe yes, maybe no, swing that needs an angle, perspective.

And there's your guideline for making the call - if it's an obvious swing, then whoop, there it is, yes he went. Anything else, any doubt at all, then no, he didn't go.

Surprising though it may be, this is happening on high school and summer league fields every day, everywhere (perhaps with the exception of the Rio Grande Valley) without incident. The only problems occur in those increasingly rare occasions in which some dinosaur comes running out screaming about how you can't make that call and everybody knows that.

Good Lord. I suggest that the pick-off at first is easier to call from C because the umpire can get a better angle. Everybody goes ballistic.

I suggest there's no angle. Three big dogs goes ballistic.

Amazing!

I appreciate the compliment, but I don't think anybody (at least nobody on my side of the argument) is going ballistic.

You didn't reply to my question about the PBUC position on this issue. Do you disagree that the statement I cited clearly provides for the possibility of an umpire going for help to the third base umpire when he's in C position? Can you tell me where there is documented support for your claim that PBUC instructs its umpires to NEVER go to a partner in B or C position for help on a checked swing?