Contact Rule...

[canablue05]

Hey guys I'm posting from Canada just wanted some interpretations from the other side of the line. I'm sorry for the longwinded post.

I was in the stands for a tournament game today, 16-18 year olds, and saw two plays at second base, in which contact was made, which resulted in the breakup of the double play. Both plays in which, under my understanding of the contact rule, should have been ruled interference.

Baseball Canada Contact rule (http://66.241.210.162/files/Canadian...ule%20Book.doc) as follows:

6.05 Contact Rule: Runners are instructed to slide or attempt to avoid making contact with a fielder. A player who maliciously runs into another player is to be declared out (unless he/she has already scored prior to committing the infraction) and is to be automatically ejected (whether or not declared safe).
B. Contact shall be considered malicious if: the contact is the result of intentional excessive force, and/or there is intent to injure.
C. Malicious contact is to be penalized whether committed by an offensive or defensive player. The Umpire shall determine whether contact was avoidable or unavoidable whether the runner was trying to reach the base or attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder. IF the runner a) could have avoided the fielder and reached the base, or b) attempted to dislodge the ball, the runner is out even if the fielder loses the possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other runners shall return to the last base legally occupied by them at the time of intent to contact. If the fielder blocks the base path, the runner may slide into or collide with the fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base. IF the collision is flagrant, the runner is called out and ejected. The ball is declared dead. If the defensive player blocks the base path clearly without possession of the ball, obstruction is called. The runner is safe and a delayed dead ball is signaled. If the runner collides flagrantly, he/she shall be declared safe due to obstruction but shall be ejected. The ball is dead.

The main question I have is what is considered a legitimate attempt to reach the base. It is slide or avoid, does the slide not have to be made to avoid the contact? Under the interpretation given to me by the umpire, who made the call, and is the tourney superviser, as long as the slide is made contact is okay. Hence in his interpretation a runner can slide into second to break up the DP and make contact with the fielder as long as he can reach the base...

I work Canadian College Baseball, which plays similar rules to NCAA (as far as I'm told), in which a runner now must slide directly into the base, no arms length, etc. He cannot slide past the base to make contact, and he cannot put his hands up during his slide, or even pop up. Any such attempts should be ruled interference, and the offensive team shall be penalized, in this case by calling the BR out at first base...Is this correct?

As far as I knew, this interpretation was also the same as the Baseball Canada interpretation, yet after witnessing the two plays today, and rereading the official rules I am now second guessing myself....

Any input whatsoever is greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for making it so long.

Thanks.

[David B]

Originally Posted by canablue05

Hey guys I'm posting from Canada just wanted some interpretations from the other side of the line. I'm sorry for the longwinded post.

I was in the stands for a tournament game today, 16-18 year olds, and saw two plays at second base, in which contact was made, which resulted in the breakup of the double play. Both plays in which, under my understanding of the contact rule, should have been ruled interference.

Baseball Canada Contact rule (http://66.241.210.162/files/Canadian...ule%20Book.doc) as follows:

6.05 Contact Rule: Runners are instructed to slide or attempt to avoid making contact with a fielder. A player who maliciously runs into another player is to be declared out (unless he/she has already scored prior to committing the infraction) and is to be automatically ejected (whether or not declared safe).
B. Contact shall be considered malicious if: the contact is the result of intentional excessive force, and/or there is intent to injure.
C. Malicious contact is to be penalized whether committed by an offensive or defensive player. The Umpire shall determine whether contact was avoidable or unavoidable whether the runner was trying to reach the base or attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder. IF the runner a) could have avoided the fielder and reached the base, or b) attempted to dislodge the ball, the runner is out even if the fielder loses the possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other runners shall return to the last base legally occupied by them at the time of intent to contact. If the fielder blocks the base path, the runner may slide into or collide with the fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base. IF the collision is flagrant, the runner is called out and ejected. The ball is declared dead. If the defensive player blocks the base path clearly without possession of the ball, obstruction is called. The runner is safe and a delayed dead ball is signaled. If the runner collides flagrantly, he/she shall be declared safe due to obstruction but shall be ejected. The ball is dead.

The main question I have is what is considered a legitimate attempt to reach the base. It is slide or avoid, does the slide not have to be made to avoid the contact? Under the interpretation given to me by the umpire, who made the call, and is the tourney superviser, as long as the slide is made contact is okay. Hence in his interpretation a runner can slide into second to break up the DP and make contact with the fielder as long as he can reach the base...

I work Canadian College Baseball, which plays similar rules to NCAA (as far as I'm told), in which a runner now must slide directly into the base, no arms length, etc. He cannot slide past the base to make contact, and he cannot put his hands up during his slide, or even pop up. Any such attempts should be ruled interference, and the offensive team shall be penalized, in this case by calling the BR out at first base...Is this correct?

As far as I knew, this interpretation was also the same as the Baseball Canada interpretation, yet after witnessing the two plays today, and rereading the official rules I am now second guessing myself....

Any input whatsoever is greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for making it so long.

Thanks.

What it sounds like to me the umpire is saying is that "if the slide is legal and contact is made, there is no penalty."

IOW, the R1 can slide into second as long as it meets all the criteria for a "legal" slide and it fits the rule as far as no pop ups, not past the bag etc.,

At least that what I'm reading into it.

Thanks
David

[ozzy6900]

There are a lot of ways that there can be "legal" contact. If you read the rule carefully, this so called "contact" rule is no different that any other. If the contact is malicious of flagrant, it is illegal. If the runner over-slides the base and makes contact (which alters the play), then the contact is illegal. What you have to remember is just because there is contact, doesn't make it illegal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by David B

What it sounds like to me the umpire is saying is that "if the slide is legal and contact is made, there is no penalty."

IOW, the R1 can slide into second as long as it meets all the criteria for a "legal" slide and it fits the rule as far as no pop ups, not past the bag etc.,

At least that what I'm reading into it.

Thanks
David

The rule says "slide or attempt to avoid contact." If it's a legal slide, there can be legal contact.

[bob jenkins]

Your post contained two slightly different rules issues -- malicious contact and Force Play Slide Rule.

The rule you quoted seems to be the same as teh NCAA malicious contact rule -- it applies only when there is malicious contact / a blocked base, etc. It *usually* does not apply on a double-play ball / slide at second (that is, it could apply, but instances of "crashing maliciously" into F4 / F6 are rare).

The rule you paraphrased (slide directly into the bag) seems to be the same as the FED and NCAA FPSR. Failing to slide in this manner does result in two outs.

Since you didn't describe the actions of R1 during the play, I can't comment on what I think the appropriate ruling would be.

[canablue05]

Thanks guys for your replies.

I was getting more at the force play slide issue, I just posted the entire thing because it was all I could find on the Baseball Canada webpage regarding contact...

For you Bob:

In the first situation R1 slid through the bag, and in doing so made contact with the fielder, which resulted in him dropping the baseball on the transfer.

In the second situation R1 slid to the right of the bag, within reaching distance. Contact was made, which resulted in the breakup of the DP.

From the interpretation I was taught both of these plays should have been ruled interference, and the out at first base should have been awarded. Is my interpretation accurate?

Thanks again.

[Cub42]

If you are using the Force Play slide rule, r1 must slide in a direct line to the base. If he makes contact with the def player past the bag, or goes to the side of bag, pops up, barrel roles or throws up hands, you have Interference, db. Contact infront of bag, if not malicious is ok

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by canablue05

Thanks guys for your replies.

I was getting more at the force play slide issue, I just posted the entire thing because it was all I could find on the Baseball Canada webpage regarding contact...

For you Bob:

In the first situation R1 slid through the bag, and in doing so made contact with the fielder, which resulted in him dropping the baseball on the transfer.

In the second situation R1 slid to the right of the bag, within reaching distance. Contact was made, which resulted in the breakup of the DP.

From the interpretation I was taught both of these plays should have been ruled interference, and the out at first base should have been awarded. Is my interpretation accurate?

Thanks again.

AS described, these plays probably (see soem of the other commetns about the lovation of the contact,. etc) should hae resulted in two outs, if the tournament was using the FPSR.

If the tournament was not using the FPSR, these plays were most likely legal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

AS described, these plays probably (see soem of the other commetns about the lovation of the contact,. etc) should hae resulted in two outs, if the tournament was using the FPSR.

If the tournament was not using the FPSR, these plays were most likely legal.

Bob, part of your post reminds me of Burns:

Scots, wha hae wi Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led,
Welcome to your gory bed
Or to victorie!
Now's the day, and now's the hour:
See the front o' battle lour,
See approach proud Edward's power---
Chains and slaverie!

&c.

Not germane to the FPSR, but oh well...