Tie goes to runner?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by steve friendly

I read all of rule 7.0. Your money is safe, but is the runner? How do I contact M.L.B Umpires Association on this one? No one seems to have a cut and dried answer. Not just here on this board, but elswhere. Maybe the umpires association can settle this one. Or maybe I'm just dreaming.

A strict and literal reading of the rules won't help much, because it would tell you that a "tie" goes to the runner at 1B, but goes to the fielder on force plays at any other base. The truth is the rulesmakers didn't word the rules with any kind of distinction like that in mind; they simply did not consider, or deliberately provide for, the concept of a "tie" in the rules.

The answers you're getting here are as good as you're gonna get, i.e., they're the same answers you'll get from one or more MLB umpires.

[Uncle George]

There is no such thing as a tie in baseball. The Batter-runner is either out or safe! Plus, it's a judgement call and we all know that judgement calls can't be argued! Right!

[Tim C]

I have refrained so far -- but I cannot help myself . . .

++++++++++++++++

It doesn't matter if the two actions happen exactly at the same time.

"Why" you may ask?, simple:

The NBA and NTSB both did independent studies that show the exact same outcome:

The human mind cannot tell what happens as soon as two actions occurr within .04 of a second of each other.

Both studies showed that no matter what happens the human brain cannot define the order of happenings when they happen so close together.

I would contend that an umpire simply will make the call based on what "appeared" to have happened.

While there are no "ties" (when dealing with safe/out), we wouldn't know it if it happened.

Regards,

[johnnyg08]

There's nothing more you're going to hear from MLB about this one...in fact I'd be surprised if they'd even take the time to answer a question like that. There are no ties...only for the Saab driving mom in the stands.

[pob14]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

There's nothing more you're going to hear from MLB about this one...in fact I'd be surprised if they'd even take the time to answer a question like that.

Actually, they did. From MLB.com's Ask The Umpire website:

I am an umpire for Little League. The coach told me that ties go to the runner. I said the batter has to beat the throw to first because there are no such thing as ties. Who is right?
-- L.M.F.
[Tim] McClelland: That is exactly right. There are no ties and there is no rule that says the tie goes to the runner. But the rule book does say that the runner must beat the ball to first base, and so if he doesn't beat the ball, then he is out. So you have to make the decision. That's why umpires are paid the money they are, to make the decision on if he did or if he didn't. The only thing you can do is go by whether or not he beat the ball. If he did, then he is safe.

So there it is, from MLB. No ties.

[SanDiegoSteve]

...MAN LAW!

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Some think its a rule that tie goes to the runner; and some umpires call a game that way too. But in reality, thats wrong. Rule says the batter MUST BEAT the ball to the bag; meaning a tie would be an out. Simple. and i have never seen it happen where the ball gets there at EXACTLY the same time the ball gets there.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Some think its a rule that tie goes to the runner; and some umpires call a game that way too. But in reality, thats wrong. Rule says the batter MUST BEAT the ball to the bag; meaning a tie would be an out. Simple.

PLEASE stop saying the rules clearly say the batter must beat the ball to the bag. You are wrong. Read this rule:

6.05(j) A batter is out when after a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base.

Now, assuming English is your mother tongue, I hope you can see that a literal reading of this rule would suggest that a "tie," i.e., the batter or first base is tagged AT THE SAME TIME he touches first base, would NOT satisfy this rule's requirement for the batter being out.

Simple.

There are no ties in umpiring; the runner is either out or safe. But please, please do not base your argument in support of this reality on the wording of the rules. It's been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, yet several pages into this thread you're still citing "the rules" in support of your claim that a tie is always an out.

It ain't so. Please, stop saying it is.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

Dan,

No offense here. You are new even though you have racked up 70+ posts in a few days. You are providing misinformation to the board which people like Dave need to address.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Ive been here a couple weeks. I may be wrong, but it helps me learn also. I apologize for that. But then again; umpires at different levels=different rules

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Ive been here a couple weeks. I may be wrong, but it helps me learn also. I apologize for that. But then again; umpires at different levels=different rules

As someone who umpires college and high school baseball along with Little League (and Dave Hensley does also), you would be well served to listen more and post less. 95% (or more) of the rules that apply in Major League Baseball are the exact same in Little League.

Last night I'm working 2 games in our state 9-10 year old tourney on the small diamond (five years ago I would've never imagined me working these games). A team from the northern part of the state asked about a "must slide rule" on a successful steal of second where the runner ran to the base and the fielder missed a swipe tag (LL has no such thing) and also thought that once a catcher had the ball the runners had to go to the next base or return to their previous base (some *******ized local rule that they adamantly thought was a real LL rule -- either that or something their umpires "thought" was a LL rule). They also thought running the ball to the mound "froze" the runners.

At least it wasn't over 100 degrees.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

I will continue beating the poor horsey here.

Re-read 6.05(j) very carefully. It is talking about a play in which you can either tag the base, or tag the runner. It is a very poorly written rule, which contradicts common logic, which should tell us that the runner must beat the play in order to be safe, but actually says that the play must beat the runner in order to be out, which is what is causing this entire silly debate.

7.08(e), on the other hand, suggests that runners forced at bases other than 1st (because the BR is not forced to first, by rule) are out if they do not touch the base before either they or the base are touched. This is the opposite of how 6.05(j) is written, and really should be the standard used in 6.05(j), if the rule writers wanted to end this "tie goes to the runner" crap once and for all.

Do you see the difference?

[Tim C]

Now some of you may see why I have such a distaste for Little League umpires.

If "Dan" was posting on eTeamSleeze his posts would be average and appropriate. He has said he "assumes" all rules questions are Little League: that is a critical mistake on this board.

This board is a mixture of umpires that primarily work games played by shaving aged players. In the most general of terms, we assume references are OBR, FED or NCAA -- for someone to not only assume the questions are base on Little Legaue but make their statements as if they KNOW the rules is a double wammy.

Maybe, just maybe, when the LLWS is done (the finest example of terrible umpiring proven each summer on National TV) many of the LL posters will return to their couches.

In an effort to get my point across and not offend SDS: "Most Little League umpires suck."

Regards,

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Maybe, just maybe, when the LLWS is done (the finest example of terrible umpiring proven each summer on National TV) many of the LL posters will return to their couches.

Just 23 days Tee....hang on.