Tie goes to runner?

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Some think its a rule that tie goes to the runner; and some umpires call a game that way too. But in reality, thats wrong. Rule says the batter MUST BEAT the ball to the bag; meaning a tie would be an out. Simple. and i have never seen it happen where the ball gets there at EXACTLY the same time the ball gets there.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Some think its a rule that tie goes to the runner; and some umpires call a game that way too. But in reality, thats wrong. Rule says the batter MUST BEAT the ball to the bag; meaning a tie would be an out. Simple.

PLEASE stop saying the rules clearly say the batter must beat the ball to the bag. You are wrong. Read this rule:

6.05(j) A batter is out when after a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base.

Now, assuming English is your mother tongue, I hope you can see that a literal reading of this rule would suggest that a "tie," i.e., the batter or first base is tagged AT THE SAME TIME he touches first base, would NOT satisfy this rule's requirement for the batter being out.

Simple.

There are no ties in umpiring; the runner is either out or safe. But please, please do not base your argument in support of this reality on the wording of the rules. It's been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, yet several pages into this thread you're still citing "the rules" in support of your claim that a tie is always an out.

It ain't so. Please, stop saying it is.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

Dan,

No offense here. You are new even though you have racked up 70+ posts in a few days. You are providing misinformation to the board which people like Dave need to address.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Ive been here a couple weeks. I may be wrong, but it helps me learn also. I apologize for that. But then again; umpires at different levels=different rules

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

rules are rules. But what i was indicating is on a play where u can just tag the bag. Now if u had to tag the runner for an out, thats different

I will continue beating the poor horsey here.

Re-read 6.05(j) very carefully. It is talking about a play in which you can either tag the base, or tag the runner. It is a very poorly written rule, which contradicts common logic, which should tell us that the runner must beat the play in order to be safe, but actually says that the play must beat the runner in order to be out, which is what is causing this entire silly debate.

7.08(e), on the other hand, suggests that runners forced at bases other than 1st (because the BR is not forced to first, by rule) are out if they do not touch the base before either they or the base are touched. This is the opposite of how 6.05(j) is written, and really should be the standard used in 6.05(j), if the rule writers wanted to end this "tie goes to the runner" crap once and for all.

Do you see the difference?

[Tim C]

Now some of you may see why I have such a distaste for Little League umpires.

If "Dan" was posting on eTeamSleeze his posts would be average and appropriate. He has said he "assumes" all rules questions are Little League: that is a critical mistake on this board.

This board is a mixture of umpires that primarily work games played by shaving aged players. In the most general of terms, we assume references are OBR, FED or NCAA -- for someone to not only assume the questions are base on Little Legaue but make their statements as if they KNOW the rules is a double wammy.

Maybe, just maybe, when the LLWS is done (the finest example of terrible umpiring proven each summer on National TV) many of the LL posters will return to their couches.

In an effort to get my point across and not offend SDS: "Most Little League umpires suck."

Regards,

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Ive been here a couple weeks. I may be wrong, but it helps me learn also. I apologize for that. But then again; umpires at different levels=different rules

As someone who umpires college and high school baseball along with Little League (and Dave Hensley does also), you would be well served to listen more and post less. 95% (or more) of the rules that apply in Major League Baseball are the exact same in Little League.

Last night I'm working 2 games in our state 9-10 year old tourney on the small diamond (five years ago I would've never imagined me working these games). A team from the northern part of the state asked about a "must slide rule" on a successful steal of second where the runner ran to the base and the fielder missed a swipe tag (LL has no such thing) and also thought that once a catcher had the ball the runners had to go to the next base or return to their previous base (some *******ized local rule that they adamantly thought was a real LL rule -- either that or something their umpires "thought" was a LL rule). They also thought running the ball to the mound "froze" the runners.

At least it wasn't over 100 degrees.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Maybe, just maybe, when the LLWS is done (the finest example of terrible umpiring proven each summer on National TV) many of the LL posters will return to their couches.

Just 23 days Tee....hang on.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Tim C

In an effort to get my point across and not offend SDS: "Most Little League umpires suck."

I don't take offense to that, because, like Rich and Dave, I am a real umpire who happens to also work Little League. 95% of games I've ever worked have been shaving age players.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Now some of you may see why I have such a distaste for Little League umpires.

In an effort to get my point across and not offend SDS: "Most Little League umpires suck."

I wont get into that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

I wont get into that.

Why won't you?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why won't you?

Now, now, Rich. You just advised him to read more and post less, and now here you are baiting him

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LMan

Now, now, Rich. You just advised him to read more and post less, and now here you are baiting him

I just like to hear from Little League umpires, cause I don't understand them even though I work a few dozen games in Little League each season. I'm pretty insulated from the stereotypical LL umpire -- for example, last night I worked a 9-10 state DH with a guy who went to PBUC this year and was offered a job (didn't take it cause of lack of health insurance).

I like working LL, mainly because of the people I umpire with, but I just don't "get it" sometimes. How any significant subset of a group of umpires can, essentially, work one rule set and yet make comments like "maybe I need to read the rule book" amazes me.

And don't get me started on how they expect umpires to work for free and also pick umpires for national tournaments using "umpiring ability" as a minor factor in being chosen....

[steve friendly]

SanDiegoSteve I'm almost sorry I ever brought this question up. Thanks for your input and everybody else as well. I went to the "go ask umpire site" and the umpiring crew chief for the major leagues said the runner must beat the throw other-wise he is out. Hard to argue with that. I was in dispute of that in the beginning, but tough to refute a major league umpire. If you guys want to keep beating it to death, go right ahead. It is entertaining.