Is it Blues or Coaches Responsibility

[PeteBooth]

Tim started an interesting thread about a bat throwing incident at the end of the game which IMO could have had more value added discussion.

It seems as though we have 2 "ends of the spectrum" on the issue

1. Dump the kid otherwise the next crew will have to deal with it or

2. The game is OVER so It's OVER let's get to our cars.

In the thread Tim presented, on face value did not indicate the player saying anything derrogatory at the umpire(s). All that was mentioned is that the player flung the bat and the helmet.

IN FED we are mandated by rule even at the end of the game to toss, however, in OBR there is no Definitive rule governing this except for Umpire Judgement.

Depending upon which leagues you umpire in, from my experience (at least at the legion level), as long as the player does not do something real stupid like say "Hey Blue go F yourself" or something similiar, I tend to work with the coach. If I see a player has a short fuse etc. I will say "Coach please handle" etc.

Ok now to this thread. If I remember some of the responses on Tim's thread, one poster said that if you do not do anything you are doing the next crew injustice. my answer to that is this:

if the coach does not handle the problem he/she is doing an injustice to the TEAM.

The Coach picks the players not us and they should be aware of any kids who have short fuses etc. In addition it is not our job to discipline players, that's the coaches job. An ejection is not a disiplinary move. It simply removes the player from that game but does not address the real issue.

Therefore in your opinions or experiences what is that "imaginary line" that differentiates the Coaches responsibility from ours regarding his/her players.

Pete Booth

[jwwashburn]

If he tells me to F myself, of course I will always dump him.

What I find interesting is that everyone agress with that but some people are wondering what to do about the helmet and bat throwing.

I have seen guys end up in an ambulance because of angry morons throwing a bat and a helmet. It is at LEAST as bad as cursing an umpire-doncha think?

Joe

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

if the coach does not handle the problem he/she is doing an injustice to the TEAM.

The Coach picks the players not us and they should be aware of any kids who have short fuses etc. In addition it is not our job to discipline players, that's the coaches job. An ejection is not a disiplinary move. It simply removes the player from that game but does not address the real issue.

Therefore in your opinions or experiences what is that "imaginary line" that differentiates the Coaches responsibility from ours regarding his/her players.

Pete Booth

I agree with the above statements, however, in my experience, many times the coaches can be clueless as well.
For example, when little Johnny draws a line in the dirt after taking strike three, I eject him. He no doubt wants an explaination, but he won't get it from me. If Johnny Sr. comes out and asks me why I just dumped his kid, I tell him that he drew a line and thereby was showing me up. I won't take that from adults, so I certainly won't take that from Jr. Many coaches used to tell me that they didn't know this action was that bad. "Well skip, now you do... share this information with as many players as possible."

My imaginary line; I don't teach them how to play or coach, but I will teach them how to keep themselves in the game.

This is just one example.

Also, what will warrent an early gate from me may not from my partner, and vice versa.

To close, I don't care how far away the perp is, if it deserves (in my opinion) my getting involved, I'll get involved.

Like John Wayne once said, "When you screw up, I'm gonna jump. And when I land, it's gonna hurt."

[Cub42]

I did not get the whole story, but this much I know. If you have to tell the coach to take care of it, then he doesn't understand what his job is. Umpires don't eject players or coaches, they eject themselves. Run him immediately, and then tell the coach he needs to get control of his players.Don't be afraid to take action in an amateur game, mainly because in summer ball, the coaches have no clue as to what they are responsible for. The next time you might be wondering if you were too stern, think about when they ask if they can appeal a foul, ball, or if your partner who is in C can "get help" for you on a play at the plate.
Kurt Branin

[mcrowder]

No one has said this, but I think one rule of thumb is important.

If an action is such that you would eject in the middle of the game, then you should also eject if that action should happen to occur at game's end.

So, if you're tossing a kid for this bat and helmet toss in the 2nd inning, then you ought to toss the kid for doing the same at the end.

That said, the original post had people chiding BU for not ejecting, when PU, right on top of the action, failed to do so. In FED that's appropriate, as this is an automatic ejection. Since it's not in OBR, this is obviously PU's call and if BU poaches this call, it's as bad as poaching any other call of PU's.

If I were PU, I cannot imagine not ejecting for this, but I leave open the possibility that there may exist extenuating circumstances which I cannot currently imagine, which would lead me to not eject.

[TussAgee11]

Earlier this year, last pitch of the game, warning already issued, i got slammed with a bat in my forearm. It was so bad that I went down to a knee and barely could signal out for the line drive caught by F4. I held my arm walking off the field. Nobody noticed until I walked into the press box to get my keys, and a cute mom said "I saw that, are you ok". She was my nurse, and got me an icepack.

Coaches never knew. I was too pissed to toss the kid, or talk to a coach about it. 2 weeks later and my bruise is still there.

[SAump]

This whole discussion reminds me of the need for Good Semaritan laws.

Hey, young MEN toss their bats and their helmets after striking out. It is NO big secret. I wouldn't expect them to be happy with the results either. I don't particularly like to watch their behavior approaching the dugout. It is no different at the end of the ballgame.

The umpire could discuss those actions with the player involved or address the coach to have a word or more with the young man. But my preference is ask the coach to address his TEAM problem. I would leave it at that. Warnings are not high on my list of things to do. Tossing the kid, possibly getting into an argument with the coach or having to write a report are not part of my postgame activities either.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by PWL

Good one, WussAgee11.............

I hope I detect a level of sarcasm. Perhaps you would enjoy me flinging a bat into your forearm sometime, and still not having complete range of motion of ur wrist 2 weeks later. Talk about picking a fight where one doesn't exist.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Earlier this year, last pitch of the game, warning already issued, i got slammed with a bat in my forearm. It was so bad that I went down to a knee and barely could signal out for the line drive caught by F4. I held my arm walking off the field. Nobody noticed until I walked into the press box to get my keys, and a cute mom said "I saw that, are you ok". She was my nurse, and got me an icepack.

Coaches never knew. I was too pissed to toss the kid, or talk to a coach about it. 2 weeks later and my bruise is still there.

Have you returned the icepack?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Earlier this year, last pitch of the game, warning already issued, i got slammed with a bat in my forearm. It was so bad that I went down to a knee and barely could signal out for the line drive caught by F4. I held my arm walking off the field. Nobody noticed until I walked into the press box to get my keys, and a cute mom said "I saw that, are you ok". She was my nurse, and got me an icepack.

Coaches never knew. I was too pissed to toss the kid, or talk to a coach about it. 2 weeks later and my bruise is still there.

If it was intentional, you should have ejected anyway.

If it was unintentional, and FED, you should have ejected anyway (since you had warned).

If it was unintentional and not FED, follow whatever the local rules are (the pure OBR rule is "suck it up." -- and I don't mean to minimize the pain by saying that)

[lmathews19]

In FED when you eject a kid at the end of a game for doing something like this, what is the penalty? Is it just a one-game suspension or is there no suspension? Also, about the flinging the bat thing, is there really a rule against this in FED. I mean, in most youth ball I see umpires warning kids for slinging their bats and they will call them out if they do it again, but I thought this was just a youth rule and not an "official" rule. I have just told them not to do it again, and that has always worked for me. By the way PWL, next time you post something, why don't you make it worth reading and not be a smarta$$?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by lmathews19

By the way PWL, next time you post something, why don't you make it worth reading and not be a smarta$$?

It wasn't that long ago I would have said, "the next time would be the first," but he's actually been slightly better recently.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by lmathews19

In FED when you eject a kid at the end of a game for doing something like this, what is the penalty? Is it just a one-game suspension or is there no suspension?

Depends on the State / League. Most areas have a suspension (I think)

Also, about the flinging the bat thing, is there really a rule against this in FED.

FED 3-3-1c and 3-3-1m. It's an ejection, not an out (after a warning, if appropriate).

I

mean, in most youth ball I see umpires warning kids for slinging their bats and they will call them out if they do it again, but I thought this was just a youth rule and not an "official" rule.

Sometimes the ump is making something up; sometimes it's a local rule.

[TussAgee11]

Even the youth leagues, the batter is never OUT! He is removed from the bases and ejected. You cannot be out for throwing a bat.

My game was OBR, I just sucked it up and played patient with my hot nurse

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Even the youth leagues, the batter is never OUT! He is removed from the bases and ejected. You cannot be out for throwing a bat.

My game was OBR, I just sucked it up and played patient with my hot nurse

Not so fast,my friend. Under Dizzy Dean Baseball (tm) rules, after a
warning for throwing the bat once, a batter CAN be declared out for
a second offense.