When do you call out?

[DG]

Originally Posted by CoachTex

Rookie ump here, so help me out please.

Situation 1: LL Senior league, three man crew. I'm in the C position. R2 attempts to steal 3rd. F2 throws down to 3rd, F5 catches, makes the tag on the slide. I have the runner out but not until I can see the ball. I wait a couple of seconds, F5 keeps glove on the ground. I yell "show me the ball". F5 keeps glove on the ground waiting for call. I yell again "show me the ball". He waits, I say "where's the ball" as I don't see anywhere on the ground. Finally, F5 turns his glove around and I see the ball in his glove and I yell out. F5 then raises his glove and as he does, the ball rolls out. No one says word and game goes on. In talking to PU later, I asked him "runner was safe since F5 dropped the ball huh?", he said "yep".

Situation 2:LL Major game, 3 man crew. No runners, no outs. Short fly ball to left. F7 runs in makes the catch but I see he has the ball in the palm and his glove turned upside down. I'm waiting for him to remove the ball from the glove before I call the out. Other base umpire yells "out". In between innings I say to him "what are you doing making my call?" to which he replied "my gosh, how long are you going to wait before you make the call?". I tell him the situation and what I was waiting for. He says "he had the ball, batter is out, make the call".

So, what's a good rule of thumb. Should I wait until fielder removes the ball from the glove in all cases or do I call out and damn the occassional ball slipping out?

SIT 1: If I see the ball enter the glove and the tag made, but am unsure if he held onto the ball I will wait FOREVER for him to show me the ball, in his glove. When he does I make the out call, regardless of what he does afterwards. Your partner was wrong. SIT 2: I am assuming you are U3, you don't say. It's bad form for your partner(s) to make your calls. In between innings is not the right time though, because I would be nowhere near my partners between innings. After the game is a good time to do post-game. Timing-wise, I think you can make an out call before the fielder runs half way to the dugout and flips the ball toward the mound voluntarily. If there is any question that he has secure possession wait for the voluntary release, otherwise OUT and if he drops the ball afterwards the batter is still OUT.

[GarthB]

Situation 1: LL Smitty was wrong.

Situation 2: LL Smitty was wrong.

[RPatrino]

Did the fielder demonstrate control of the ball? He carried it friggin all the way to the mound and voluntarily released it. Let's get real.

What did the batter abandon?

[Dave Hensley]

In the first situation, the issue is not really deciding whether the fielder has secure control, it is knowing, FOR SURE, where the ball is and confirming that it is in the possession of the fielder who made the tag. "Show me the ball" is a perfectly appropriate and common means of making that determination.

Now, to deal with the drop in situation 1 and the issue in situation 2, Evans speaks of the concept of "he had it long enough" to confirm secure possession, even in the absence of a voluntary and intentional release. The "long enough" principle clearly applies in both your situations. In fact, it's why nobody argued with your out call in the first situation, even when the fielder ultimately dropped the ball out of his glove. Everybody "gets it," intuitively.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

In the first situation, the issue is not really deciding whether the fielder has secure control, it is knowing, FOR SURE, where the ball is and confirming that it is in the possession of the fielder who made the tag. "Show me the ball" is a perfectly appropriate and common means of making that determination.

Now, to deal with the drop in situation 1 and the issue in situation 2, Evans speaks of the concept of "he had it long enough" to confirm secure possession, even in the absence of a voluntary and intentional release. The "long enough" principle clearly applies in both your situations. In fact, it's why nobody argued with your out call in the first situation, even when the fielder ultimately dropped the ball out of his glove. Everybody "gets it," intuitively.

Be careful here Dave. IMO, this is one of the most difficult to defend positions regarding catch/no catch.
What exactly is long enough? If you're discussing this play with a manager, how do you describe what is long enough? The party of the second part in a discussion will most likely ask for a time frame (is 3 seconds long enough?)

It all comes back to the player demonstrating complete control of the ball.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Be careful here Dave. IMO, this is one of the most difficult to defend positions regarding catch/no catch.
What exactly is long enough? If you're discussing this play with a manager, how do you describe what is long enough? The party of the second part in a discussion will most likely ask for a time frame (is 3 seconds long enough?)

It all comes back to the player demonstrating complete control of the ball.

And demonstrating "complete control" and then subsequently dropping the ball involuntarily and unintentionally is, if ruled a catch, nothing more than adopting the "he had it long enough" principle.

"Complete control" is not the rulebook criteria. "Voluntary and intentional release" is, and it is inadequate as the sole determinant of whether a ball was caught or not.

If your guideline is "complete control" but you ignore a subsequent drop of the ball, then you're using Evans' "long enough" guideline whether you acknowledge it or not.

[ctblu40]

Hmmm? Me thinks you're right. I do use the "long enough" criteria.

So what about explaining this to the manager? It seems as thought their argument is always "He had it long enough."
What response could one use that would not initiate the what is the time frame question?