dead ball area

[ggk]

american legion game - pro rules. at ground rules the home coach explains that there is an out of play line which runs roughly parallel to the foul line. he then states that "it's catch and carry" you have the catch the ball in play but then you may cross the out of play line into dead ball territory, but you must return to the live ball area prior to making a throw. i am BU, my PU says nothing so I speak up and explain that this is not the rule. i explain that as long as you don't fall down you can throw from dead ball area. coach takes issue and explains that this is how they play it at their field. i argue that a ground rule cannot supersede a book rule. i ask PU to weigh in and he hems and haws and says nothing. visiting coach agrees to play along with home coaches idea. i relent, but am annoyed a bit. i didn't want to make an even bigger issue out of it as i was BU and new to this particular league. the game proceeds w/o incident.
i am returning to the same field tomorrow and I have the plate. any suggestions as to how i should handle ground rules? should be fun.
thanks.

[BigUmp56]

You could always print this and show it to the coaches.


7.04(c) Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: A fielder or catcher may reach or step into, or go into the dugout with one or both feet to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. Ball is in play. If the fielder or catcher, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and runners advance one base without liability to be put out.

Professional Interpretation: The critical factor in this ruling is the definition of "falls." A player may stumble, lean on a dugout wall, be supported by players from either team, and teeter on a fence railing without actually falling. This is a judgment call and the umpire must be alert and in position to judge the player's status after catching a fly ball. The player may throw from a dead ball territory and complete a play provided he has not fallen in the dead ball territory (e.g. dugout, stands, photographers' pit). A one base award is made if the fielder falls in a dead ball area after catching a fly ball. Umpires should be extremely alert as the runners must legally tag as on any fly ball caught. Even though an award may be made, the runner is still obligated to re-touch his last legally occupied base at the time of the pitch.


Tim.

[ggk]

thanks. i know i could pull out a rule book, but should i have any concern for being a hardass given i'm new in the league? i may be even be working with the same partner who allowed their bogus ground rule to stand.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by ggk

thanks. i know i could pull out a rule book, but should i have any concern for being a hardass given i'm new in the league? i may be even be working with the same partner who allowed their bogus ground rule to stand.

Talk with the partner in the parking lot.

Clarify with the coaches that this is how you will play today.

Call the assignor to see if the coach you had today was getting that info from the league (if its actually a league rule). If it is a league rule, your assignor should get it overturned with the league president rather quickly.

Thats how I'd play my cards.

[BigUmp56]

I don't see how properly applying the rules could be construed as you being a hard @ss. I think that if you were to approach him like a gentleman and mention that you did a little research tonight and found his ground rule in direct contradiction with the official rules it would be alright. Make him look like the hard @ss if he refuses to listen to reason. I might even ask him if there was a valid reason why they had such a ground rule. Who knows, he might come up with a real bu11$1t story for you to share with us tommorow night.



Tim.

[ggk]

thanks guys. i'll definitely review the situation with my parnter during our pregame.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

You could always print this and show it to the coaches.


7.04(c) Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: A fielder or catcher may reach or step into, or go into the dugout with one or both feet to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. Ball is in play. If the fielder or catcher, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and runners advance one base without liability to be put out.

Professional Interpretation: The critical factor in this ruling is the definition of "falls." A player may stumble, lean on a dugout wall, be supported by players from either team, and teeter on a fence railing without actually falling. This is a judgment call and the umpire must be alert and in position to judge the player's status after catching a fly ball. The player may throw from a dead ball territory and complete a play provided he has not fallen in the dead ball territory (e.g. dugout, stands, photographers' pit). A one base award is made if the fielder falls in a dead ball area after catching a fly ball. Umpires should be extremely alert as the runners must legally tag as on any fly ball caught. Even though an award may be made, the runner is still obligated to re-touch his last legally occupied base at the time of the pitch.


Tim.

Tim, remember the rule changes for 2006? This was one of them!

Old Rule:

7.04 Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when—
(c) a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field;

A fielder or catcher may reach or step into, or go into the dugout with one or both feet to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. Ball is in play.

If the fielder or catcher, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and runners advance one base without liability to be put out.


New Rule:

7.04 Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when—
(c) a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field;

Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

The fielder can no longer go into the dugout to make a catch. That portion of the rule was deleted as they no longer want players going into dugouts to make plays.


New Rule:

Rule 6.05(a) Comment: A fielder may reach into, but not step into, a dugout to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area. Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead. Status of runners shall be as described in Rule 7.04(c) Comment.

[bossman72]

Also bring it up during your chapter meeting during rules time so EVERYBODY is on the same page.

Just make a comment that the ground rules of field x seem to superscede the rulebook and cite the applicable rule. By doing this everyone in the chapter (who attended that meeting) knows how to enforce it.