Dead-ball Area &

[umpyre007]

BRD Section 116: Catch: Dead-Ball Area: Thrown From

OBR: The fielder, unless he falls down or loses body control, may throw from any dead-ball area. (5.10f: 7.04c CMT 2)

The concept of "falling" in dead-ball territory after a catch is a well-documented concept. However, this concept of "losing body control" is a new concept to me. There are no OFF INTERPs, Notes, Plays or other clarifying comments in the BRD concerning this concept. Additionally, I have reasearched all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available and they too seem [unless I missed something] silent on the concept.

Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by umpyre007
BRD Section 116: Catch: Dead-Ball Area: Thrown From

OBR: The fielder, unless he falls down or loses body control, may throw from any dead-ball area. (5.10f: 7.04c CMT 2)

The concept of "falling" in dead-ball territory after a catch is a well-documented concept. However, this concept of "losing body control" is a new concept to me. There are no OFF INTERPs, Notes, Plays or other clarifying comments in the BRD concerning this concept. Additionally, I have reasearched all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available and they too seem [unless I missed something] silent on the concept.

Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material?

I'm sorry for the inconvenience. It's a pity you wasted all that time researching JEA, J/R, Knotty Probems, et. al. (all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available) and didn't research the paragraph directly above the OBR comment that puzzled you; i.e., the NCAA rule book at 6-1d.

Those who are familiar with NCAA-level baseball or its rules will surely have recognized the term is borrowed from that book. It is an attempt by that committee to define "falls."

I trust you will enjoy my book. If you have additional questions and want to save yourself this kind of embarrassment, write me directly: I'll be happy to help in any way I can. ([email protected])

[umpyre007]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I'm sorry for the inconvenience. It's a pity you wasted all that time researching JEA, J/R, Knotty Probems, et. al. (all Authoritative Opinion and Official Interpretation materials available) and didn't research the paragraph directly above the OBR comment that puzzled you; i.e., the NCAA rule book at 6-1d.

Those who are familiar with NCAA-level baseball or its rules will surely have recognized the term is borrowed from that book. It is an attempt by that committee to define "falls."

I trust you will enjoy my book. If you have additional questions and want to save yourself this kind of embarrassment, write me directly: I'll be happy to help in any way I can. ([email protected])

...and don't mind discussing valid baseball umpiring concepts in a public forum for all to see.

BUT, that NCAA term has nothing to do with the OBR interpretation noted in the BRD. The NCAA's attempt to define "falls" has no place in the OBR. Unlike the NCAA, there ARE numerous opinion and interpretation materials available for defining this specific ruling.

Again I submit: Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, as it applies to OBR ONLY, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material? Specifically, under OBR rules what loss of body control [other than falling down] would lead to the umpire declaring the ball dead and thus awarding bases?

Barring that, perhaps the "losing body control" concept needs to be ignored when discussing this situation under OBR rules?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by umpyre007

...and don't mind discussing valid baseball umpiring concepts in a public forum for all to see.

BUT, that NCAA term has nothing to do with the OBR interpretation noted in the BRD. The NCAA's attempt to define "falls" has no place in the OBR. Unlike the NCAA, there ARE numerous opinion and interpretation materials available for defining this specific ruling.

Again I submit: Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, as it applies to OBR ONLY, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material? Specifically, under OBR rules what loss of body control [other than falling down] would lead to the umpire declaring the ball dead and thus awarding bases?

Barring that, perhaps the "losing body control" concept needs to be ignored when discussing this situation under OBR rules?

Let me be even blunter.

"Falls down" and "loses body control" are the same thing!

The phrase has nothing to do with NCAA or OBR or FED or NAIA or Babe Ruth or Little League or Pony, Inc.

"Loses body control" was an attempt by the NCAA committee (in 1974) to describe what the words "fall down" mean. I agree with them: "loses body control" DOES DEFINE what happens when anyone "falls down."

I'm certain no sincere umpire is really confused. The phrase "loses body control" has been in the BRD since the first edition in 1981-82. Yours is the first question about this after 19 editions.

I trust you, too, now understand this elementary concept.

If you are seriously interested in discussing the BRD, I ask again: Write me privately.([email protected])

[oregonblue]

Does you mean he peed his pants??? GRIN! Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by oregonblue
Does you mean he peed his pants??? GRIN! Sorry, couldn't resist.

"BODY" control, not "bladder" control. Pay attention now. There will be a short quiz later.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by umpyre007
...Could someone enlighten me on this "losing body control" concept, as it applies to OBR ONLY, providing possible examples and authoritative and/or interpretative material? Specifically, under OBR rules what loss of body control [other than falling down] would lead to the umpire declaring the ball dead and thus awarding bases?

Barring that, perhaps the "losing body control" concept needs to be ignored when discussing this situation under OBR rules?

If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you.

1. The principle under consideration here is whether the fielder has a right to make a throw from dead ball territory.

2. The expressed intent in OBR 5.10(f), and not disputed by you, is to say that a fielder may NOT make such a throw from dead ball territory if he "falls". Note that the rule says "falls" and not "falls down". In other words, he must remain on his feet and in control of his body such that he is not in the act of "falling" when he releases the ball to make the throw.

3. The issue of "loss of body control" is one of establishing the proper timing, in order to clearly decide that the fielder was NOT IN THE ACT of "falling" when he released (threw) the ball. It implies that whether or not the ball is released, either before or after falling, it would NOT be a legitimate throw from dead ball territory if the fielder was in the act of "falling" when he released the ball and finally "falls". The latter case is established, under NCAA rules, by an evident "loss of body control" before the ball was released. In that sense, as Carl says, the "falling" and the "loss of body control" ARE effectively the same thing.

The principle followed in the BRD in this case is, IMHO, a legitimate one. The OBR clearly doesn't define what it means to "fall". Neither, as you say, does the NAPBL, JEA, J/R or any other official or authoritative source. We must interpret that for ourselves under OBR. However, the NCAA certainly HAS defined what it means to "fall", and their definition includes this concept of "loss of body control". It is perfectly appropriate, IMHO, to use the NCAA's more specific definition in preference to a mere general dictionary definition, where no other relevant specific definition exists elsewhere, when deciding for ourselves the question of what it really means to "fall" in such circumstances. The specific should always be preferred to the general in interpreting legislation, and using precedent from a comparable source is an equally accepted principle for fairly interpreting legislation.

Cheers,

[umpyre007]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you.

[snipped thought-provoking insights]

Cheers,

Thank you Mr. Willson. I will take your NCAA insights into consideration as they apply possibly to the OBR. However, I make no guarantee that I will ultimately agree with them. At least you were willing to discuss this issue, not like that other guy who just wants to poo-poo the whole discussion notion. Maybe he's just too close to the whole issue and should take a giant step backwards.

[Carl Childress]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Originally posted by Warren Willson

Thank you Mr. Willson. I will take your NCAA insights into consideration as they apply possibly to the OBR. However, I make no guarantee that I will ultimately agree with them. At least you were willing to discuss this issue, not like that other guy who just wants to poo-poo the whole discussion notion. Maybe he's just too close to the whole issue and should take a giant step backwards.

You still don't get it. There is nothing that needs doing. If a fielder falls in dead ball territory after making a catch, runners get one base. It's the same in the NCAA.

It doesn't matter to real umpires HOW the "fall" is defined. They know it when they see it.

[umpyre007]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress

It doesn't matter to real umpires HOW the "fall" is defined. They know it when they see it.

In the practical world of actual observation I can agree with this. The scholarly level is quite a different dog that just don't hunt.

Coming from anyone else I could accept this. However, coming from someone as esteemed as yourself who has built a reputation of "extreme accuracy" through his "life's work" of compiling the BRD, your explanations on this subject are somewhat lacking, and somewhat brusque. The concept of "losing body control" is not OBR factual and has no place being construed as such.

Thank you for your time.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Warren Willson

If I may I will offer a purely personal opinion on this concept, which may help clarify the issue for you.

1. The principle under consideration here is whether the fielder has a right to make a throw from dead ball territory.

2. The expressed intent in OBR 5.10(f), and not disputed by you, is to say that a fielder may NOT make such a throw from dead ball territory if he "falls". Note that the rule says "falls" and not "falls down". In other words, he must remain on his feet and in control of his body such that he is not in the act of "falling" when he releases the ball to make the throw.

3. The issue of "loss of body control" is one of establishing the proper timing, in order to clearly decide that the fielder was NOT IN THE ACT of "falling" when he released (threw) the ball. It implies that whether or not the ball is released, either before or after falling, it would NOT be a legitimate throw from dead ball territory if the fielder was in the act of "falling" when he released the ball and finally "falls". The latter case is established, under NCAA rules, by an evident "loss of body control" before the ball was released. In that sense, as Carl says, the "falling" and the "loss of body control" ARE effectively the same thing.

The principle followed in the BRD in this case is, IMHO, a legitimate one. The OBR clearly doesn't define what it means to "fall". Neither, as you say, does the NAPBL, JEA, J/R or any other official or authoritative source. We must interpret that for ourselves under OBR. However, the NCAA certainly HAS defined what it means to "fall", and their definition includes this concept of "loss of body control". It is perfectly appropriate, IMHO, to use the NCAA's more specific definition in preference to a mere general dictionary definition, where no other relevant specific definition exists elsewhere, when deciding for ourselves the question of what it really means to "fall" in such circumstances. The specific should always be preferred to the general in interpreting legislation, and using precedent from a comparable source is an equally accepted principle for fairly interpreting legislation.

Cheers,

Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree?

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by chris s
Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree?

My purely personal opinion, Chris, is that

(1) IF the fielder is in dead ball territory when he releases the throw AND
(2) IF he is in the act of "falling" when he releases the throw AND
(3) IF he subsequently "falls" on his behind THEN

IMHO the ball is DEAD and the throw is NOT allowed. OTOH,

(1) IF the fielder is NOT in dead ball territory when he releases the throw OR
(2) IF the fielder is NOT in the act of "falling" when he releases the throw i.e. he has complete body control OR
(3) IF the fielder does NOT subsequently "fall" on his behind THEN

IMHO the ball is ALIVE and the throw IS allowed.

I stress that this is purely a personal opinion, but you can certainly see the timing issue with respect to when the fielder has actually released the ball (Time of the Throw) and whether he was in the act of "falling" at that time.

Cheers,


[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 25th, 2001 at 05:23 PM]

[umpyre007]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chris s

Warren, above you mention throwing while falling the same as having fallen? I have one HS field that has a skinned infield, slopes towards FBL.When it rains, we have a nice pig wallow area that is chalked off, gives F3 about ten feet of live ball area. Numerous times I have seen a pop foul get caught and fielder gets throw off as he is falling on his ass. I guess this would be a time play?(grin) ass hits mud before throw, award bases. Throw gets off before ass hits, play it! Would you agree?

Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial.

[Warren Willson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Originally posted by chris s

Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial.

U7, my answer to Chris was predicated in the originating post being about OBR and not FED rules. Although Chris mentions it was a "HS field", I didn't presume that only FED ball can be played on such a field. This is definitely NOT a criticism of your answer, which is on point and no doubt 100% accurate. Rather it is an explanation, for the benefit of the reader, of why my earlier answer did not include the FED interpretation even presuming I had known what that was. I defer to your superior knowledge of the rules of the NFHS system.

Cheers,

[chris s]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by umpyre007

Originally posted by chris s

Under FED rules, the ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps with both feet into a dead-ball area; each runner is awarded one base. Therefore, once both of the fielder's feet pass into dead-ball territory what his ass does is immaterial.

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I work ten times as many OBR games on this field than HS, O30 league into mid November, when it rains.....