Charter member of the rodent club

[mcrowder]

Rule number 1 - Don't make threats.
Rule number 2 - see rule number 1.

"Any more from you coach and you're gone" is completely inappropriate.

"That's enough, coach," "That's the last I'll hear about the strike zone today," etc, are appropriate. But don't put yourself in a situation where you've given a coach an ultimatum or threat.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Rule number 1 - Don't make threats.
Rule number 2 - see rule number 1.

"Any more from you coach and you're gone" is completely inappropriate.

"That's enough, coach," "That's the last I'll hear about the strike zone today," etc, are appropriate. But don't put yourself in a situation where you've given a coach an ultimatum or threat.

Huh? What's the difference between:

"Any more from you coach and you're gone"

and

"That's the last I'll hear about the strike zone today,"

In both statements you're saying essentially the same thing - I've had enough. If you persist, you'll be ejected.

It's not making a threat; it's giving a warning. The key to being effective is (1) be clear in the warning, and (2) do what you say - if the coach doesn't heed the warning, dump him.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Huh? What's the difference between:

"Any more from you coach and you're gone" and "That's the last I'll hear about the strike zone today,"

That's easy - one is a threat, the other is not. One is confrontational, the other is not. One is aggressive, the other is not.

In both statements you're saying essentially the same thing - I've had enough. If you persist, you'll be ejected.

Bingo - you've made my point for me. Both of these say the same thing. And with either you get your point across. But in the first, you're being confrontational and aggressive. In the second, you're not being either. And the second is a much better game management technique.

It's not making a threat; it's giving a warning. The key to being effective is (1) be clear in the warning, and (2) do what you say - if the coach doesn't heed the warning, dump him.

Agreed, sort of. The first is not a warning, it's a threat. If you believe otherwise, you're deluding yourself. The second is a warning. The first is puffy-chested overly emasculated "Do What I Say". The second is "Coach, you're about to cross the line." Big difference in perception, and big difference in the way it's taken.

I agree with your 2nd sentence here, and would add that the only thing worse than an aggressive, confrontational threat is one that is not followed up on. I can't tell you how often I've heard a younger umpire do this: "Coach, that's enough." Chirp Chirp. "Seriously coach, no more." Chirp Chirp. "Coach, one more word and you're gone." Chirp Chirp. "I'm serious coach - no more." Ad infinitum.

Warn once. Then when he ejects himself, you help him on his way.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Warn once. Then when he ejects himself, you help him on his way.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. A long time ago I learned that the warning usually doesn't do much - in fact, it typically exacerbates the situation. While we like to think it puts people on guard, more often than not it indicates to an experienced skipper where you set your limits. I prefer to keep 'em guessing.

Look at the big dogs in MLB, they don't warn - they dump when required. At some point, you stop being a teacher/counselor and remember that you are the sheriff.

Warnings are great for kids who don't shave and coaches who may but act like they don't. Above traveling leagues, I don't use the warning unless it is mandated by the book. (Removing a hemet, etc.)

[lmathews19]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Rule number 1 - Don't make threats.
Rule number 2 - see rule number 1.

"Any more from you coach and you're gone" is completely inappropriate.

"That's enough, coach," "That's the last I'll hear about the strike zone today," etc, are appropriate. But don't put yourself in a situation where you've given a coach an ultimatum or threat.

I agree with Crowder (wise advice, I can tell you've been doing this a while). If you make a threat, then that makes things worse and, in my mind, is unprofessional. That's fine if you make threats and I wouldn't be as dogmatic as crowder and say never make them, but if you want to stick to class, then don't make them. That way you won't get labeled as the bad a$$ umpire that everybody dreads when he walks out on the field.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by lmathews19

I agree with Crowder (wise advice, I can tell you've been doing this a while). If you make a threat, then that makes things worse and, in my mind, is unprofessional. That's fine if you make threats and I wouldn't be as dogmatic as crowder and say never make them, but if you want to stick to class, then don't make them. That way you won't get labeled as the bad a$$ umpire that everybody dreads when he walks out on the field.

It depends on the threat (warning).

Stupid warning: One more word out of you and you're gone.

Smart warning: Anymore arguing of balls and strikes will be your last today.

The first sets the umpire up to either not eject or eject over something silly.

The second sets a solid foundation for an appropriate ejection.

Nothing wrong with threats (warnings) if used properly.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

I guess it depends on what level of ball you are working. The comments you mentioned in the original post wouldn't get more than a smirk from me. We call it gamesmanship and he may be doing it to see how far he can push, to get a rise out of you and get dumped or to rally his team. If I tossed a guy for those comments, it would be me that would be looking for other assignments. My assignor would be stupified and I would be embarassed.

Most of us have a breaking point and developing it is the sign of a talented umpire. As you become old and grey, you've heard most every jab and learn to let most of them go. Few words get my coaches ejected; their actions are a different story. Players are a much different matter - I take very little grief from the soldiers on the battle field. Your limits should never be set in stone though. They will evolve over the years.

I used to say that if I ever heard the F-bomb on the field I would toss a kid. Then I saw a third baseman get stung by a yellow jacket. I didn't eject the kid who used the ol' M-F when a pitch ran in and broke two of his fingers. He was already out of the game so I saw no need to compound it with a multi-game suspension when he returned. Discretion is the name of the game out there boys. Knowing when to pull the gun out of the holster is what makes you sheriff, not having the badge.

[spots101]

Knowing when to pull the gun out of the holster is what makes you sheriff, not having the badge.

Damn, I could'a used that advice 6 years ago when I knocked up my wife for the first time. I'll save that for my son when he gets older.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

With the grey hair comes wisdom...also bad knees, reading glasses, a prostate from hell, weak ankles, namby pamby taste buds and a need for a cold one more often than not.

I do have to admit, that is one of my better quotes. Let me know if Carl steals it, I don't pay to read the fluffy stuff and I know how he likes to 'borrow' my thoughts.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=WhatWuzThatBlue]I guess it depends on what level of ball you are working. The comments you mentioned in the original post wouldn't get more than a smirk from me. We call it gamesmanship and he may be doing it to see how far he can push, to get a rise out of you and get dumped or to rally his team. If I tossed a guy for those comments, it would be me that would be looking for other assignments. My assignor would be stupified and I would be embarassed.

Maybe this should be another thread but IMO it is an important matter in answering many of these type questions.

Is umpiring your Profession or one's hobby.

IMO, your answer is "right-on" for someone who umpires professionally or aspires to umpire professionally or at the D1 college level. However, for the average amateur umpire it may be different.

Why!

Umpiring for the average amateur is a hobby. Yes it's important to get training etc. but in reality some of us umpire games right after work. We are not supposed to take our work problems at home or on the field but we are human or at least I think we are.

Therefore, as an amateur, sometimes you just have enough of a coach when they constantly stop by and give their under the breath comments especially in the heat. Also, more often than not it's his team that could use the comments, meaning they are not hustling or doing what they are supposed to.

Also, you will probably see this particular coach on several occassions throughout the year. Even though we should do the things you mentioned in your post, sometimes especially after a "tough day at the office" you simply had enough of this guy and eject him.

Will it mean no more assignments - NO because there is already a shortage at least in my area. Will it mean lessor type assignments - maybe but 7 innings is 7 innings and the FEE's are the same.

In Summary: There are certain things you can try, etc. but sometimes especially if this coach is doing it all game long as he passes by it's time to say "See Ya"

Pete Booth

[Hollerace]

I have a few: "Coach, end the comments and stay in the game."

"Don't vex me." This usually confounds coach so much that he reverts to his Webster's. Just a simple, three-letter verb works wonders.

"I won't hear this a third time."

"This [talk/arm waving/whatever] will now cease."

Ace Holleran

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

I guess it depends on what level of ball you are working. The comments you mentioned in the original post wouldn't get more than a smirk from me. We call it gamesmanship and he may be doing it to see how far he can push, to get a rise out of you and get dumped or to rally his team. If I tossed a guy for those comments, it would be me that would be looking for other assignments. My assignor would be stupified and I would be embarassed.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

[Maybe this should be another thread but IMO it is an important matter in answering many of these type questions.

Is umpiring your Profession or one's hobby.

IMO, your answer is "right-on" for someone who umpires professionally or aspires to umpire professionally or at the D1 college level. However, for the average amateur umpire it may be different.

Why!

Umpiring for the average amateur is a hobby. Yes it's important to get training etc. but in reality some of us umpire games right after work. We are not supposed to take our work problems at home or on the field but we are human or at least I think we are.

Therefore, as an amateur, sometimes you just have enough of a coach when they constantly stop by and give their under the breath comments especially in the heat. Also, more often than not it's his team that could use the comments, meaning they are not hustling or doing what they are supposed to.

Also, you will probably see this particular coach on several occassions throughout the year. Even though we should do the things you mentioned in your post, sometimes especially after a "tough day at the office" you simply had enough of this guy and eject him.

Will it mean no more assignments - NO because there is already a shortage at least in my area. Will it mean lessor type assignments - maybe but 7 innings is 7 innings and the FEE's are the same.

In Summary: There are certain things you can try, etc. but sometimes especially if this coach is doing it all game long as he passes by it's time to say "See Ya"

Pete Booth

While we could probably start another thread about this, I believe I mentioned that my thoughts are based on THE LEVEL OF BALL YOU ARE WORKING. Since I base my opinion on my experience, suffice to say that I met your prerequisites.

That said, it is important not to diminish the amateur umpire. Just because the guy is coming from work and is doing it as a hobby doesn't mean that he shouldn't behave better than the Dad who steps in from the stands. We wear uniforms to put us in the mindset of a professional. We get paid to do a job and do it well. I hate it when I hear guys grumble about giving an effort equal to the talent on the field. WTF? When you are sadlled with the bottom feeders of your conference, do you do a horsepoopy job??? The comments made in the first post shouldn't really get a rise out of anyone working Varsity ball either. Some elite travel teams have some (locally) renowned coaches who can often pull the same stuff. They typically see the best umpires when they go to tourneys so they expect everyone to be that caliber. Gamesmanship has its place in baseball.

Lastly, as an amateur umpire you need to strive not to bring your problems to the field. Yes, we live in a real world with divorce, downsizing, braces, disease and car payments. Leave the crap in your trunk or locker room. Would you put up witha coach that just found out that his teenage daughter was expelled from school for selling drugs to support her pimp boyfriend who just got her pregnant? See...