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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 08:40pm
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Keep Quiet?

We all know that stepping on our partners call is very poor decorum to say the least. However tonight, I really think I should have said something and failed to do so.

Babe Ruth seniors. R1 and R3. F1 assumes the rubber in the windup. He sets his hands above chin level and my partner balks him for it, scoring the tying run in the bottom of the sixth inning.

The coach comes out to get an explanation from my partner and the discussion gets pretty heated. No one asked me to help, so I remained quiet. They continue to argue and the coach gets himself tossed by my partner.

Of course in an OBR based game this is not a balk, but my partner made it clear to the coach that's what he was balking his pitcher for. My question is should I have stepped up and headed off the ejection and potential protest when I knew this guy was wrong on his call?



Tim.
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 09:06pm
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Cool

Tim,

While I wasn't there, it sounds to me like the coach got himself tossed for no good reason.

Instead of getting all "upset" about it , he should have just used the magic phrase, "I protest", and returned to his dugout. Then if your partner hadn't consulted you, HE's the one who looks like a jackass rather than the coach. While I wouldn't say it would have been a TERRIBLE thing for you to have found a discreet way to insert yourself into the conversation, I certainly wouldn't fault you for not having done so in this case.

Speaking as a coach, even when you're right, you should go about it the right way.

JMO.

JM
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 09:58pm
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Tim,

I'm having trouble picturing this. He was in the windup, but he "set" his hands? Did he stop his delivery motion entirely in "setting?" This would have some bearing on whether it would be a balk or not, since you can't stop in the middle of your windup, "Aki Otsuka" style, with runners on base. You are supposed to deliver the pitch without interruption or alteration, right? Just checking on what really happened. Did he just start his entire delivery like that? That would be unorthodox, but legal. Give me the 411, man!
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 10:00pm
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The ONLY time I butt-in to a partner's business is when there may be a rule misapplication. I will go up to him unasked and see if he is correctly applying the rule.

In your situation, i would have went out and talked to my partner and explained the correct rule and let him reverse his own decision based on the rule that i've cited for him.
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 10:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Tim,

I'm having trouble picturing this. He was in the windup, but he "set" his hands? Did he stop his delivery motion entirely in "setting?" This would have some bearing on whether it would be a balk or not, since you can't stop in the middle of your windup, "Aki Otsuka" style, with runners on base. You are supposed to deliver the pitch without interruption or alteration, right? Just checking on what really happened. Did he just start his entire delivery like that? That would be unorthodox, but legal. Give me the 411, man!
Steve:

It was a perfectly legal position and subsequent delivery. The pitcher was in the windup facing the batter with his hands together. The webbing of the glove was just below eye level. I have no doubt that he was improperly applying the below the chin restriction while in the set position found in FED rules. I agree with John that the coach certainly could have kept himself in the game, but that was out of my control. The coach went directly to my partner and the two of them discussed this without me. Had I been called in to give some input I would have. I just didn't want to step on this guys call. It was the first time we've worked together and I didn't want to play the heavy. Had the coach lodged a proper protest I would have had to say something though, as the call would have made both of us look bad if it was taken to a committee.


Tim.

Last edited by BigUmp56; Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:13pm.
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Old Wed Jun 21, 2006, 10:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
Steve:

It was a perfectly legal position and subsequent delivery. The pitcher was in the windup facing the batter with his hands together. The webbing of the glove was just below eye level. I have no doubt that he was improperly applying the below the chin restriction while in the set position found in FED rules. I agree with John that the coach certainly could have kept himself in the game, but that was out of my control. The coach went directly to my partner and the two of them discussed this without me. Had I been called in to give some input I would have. I just didn't want to step on this guys call.


Tim.
I think you did the right thing by staying out of it. The only time I would advocate an umpire intervening in his partner's fight, is if you're working with a rookie, or a kid, or a dad out of the stands, etc. In that case you have to protect the lamb; otherwise, he lies in the bed me makes.

In the postgame, of course, you let him know he screwed the pooch on the call.
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Old Thu Jun 22, 2006, 12:06am
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Always take an Advil before the game...

Tim,
It appears that you've received some well intended but misguided advice. No matter whether you are working with a 40 year veteran or a first day rookie, you are out there together. While some feel that if a guy hangs himself, you should just stand by and watch what transpires, that is the opposite of what they teach professional umpires. Watch a big league crew sometime...they work in concert and protect each other, regardless of the call.

A more appropriate response may well have been to:
1) insure that no others could join the fracas
2) once #1 is done, approach your partner and LISTEN
3) when the conversation begins to turn, you step in between and keep the dramatic from happening (recall this in the NCAA tapes we discussed a few months ago?)
4) ask (at this point you don't TELL) the manager to step away and get your partner to 'consult' with you out of earshot
5) ASK your partner what he called and LISTEN
6) If he kicked it, you have to inform him or you are setting the game up for a protest and not doing your job
7) Put your game faces on and get the call made correctly - the two of you approach the coach (again, away from the fans and players) and HE informs the coach that he was applying a Fed rule in an OBR game. He eats some crow, you look like you are at his side and the both of you look like pros.
8) BUY HIM A BEER after the game - the guy doing the finger wagging always buys the first round.
9) Remember that you need him there for you when you boot one some day. It happens to all of us.
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Old Thu Jun 22, 2006, 06:49am
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Tim,
It appears that you've received some well intended but misguided advice. No matter whether you are working with a 40 year veteran or a first day rookie, you are out there together. While some feel that if a guy hangs himself, you should just stand by and watch what transpires, that is the opposite of what they teach professional umpires. Watch a big league crew sometime...they work in concert and protect each other, regardless of the call.

A more appropriate response may well have been to:
1) insure that no others could join the fracas
2) once #1 is done, approach your partner and LISTEN
3) when the conversation begins to turn, you step in between and keep the dramatic from happening (recall this in the NCAA tapes we discussed a few months ago?)
4) ask (at this point you don't TELL) the manager to step away and get your partner to 'consult' with you out of earshot
5) ASK your partner what he called and LISTEN
6) If he kicked it, you have to inform him or you are setting the game up for a protest and not doing your job
7) Put your game faces on and get the call made correctly - the two of you approach the coach (again, away from the fans and players) and HE informs the coach that he was applying a Fed rule in an OBR game. He eats some crow, you look like you are at his side and the both of you look like pros.
8) BUY HIM A BEER after the game - the guy doing the finger wagging always buys the first round.
9) Remember that you need him there for you when you boot one some day. It happens to all of us.
WWTB-

Well written response. I whole-heartedly agree with you on this point. Sadly though, I find it difficult to follow your protocall during a game. I know I should be doing the above, but for some reason during the heat of battle, I tend to goof on one or more of the points. Hopfully, with a little more practice I'll get this aspect down pat.
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Old Thu Jun 22, 2006, 07:24am
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Windy is right on this one. You and your reputation are on the line when your partner makes up a rule out of thin air. As far as the news media, the coaches, the players, and the parents/fans, it was the umpires who screwed up, not a specific umpire.

Your reputation will suffer with the assignor unless you are very junior to the guy who screwed up. So...

Unless I am working with an umpire very senior to myself, I find a way to interject myself into the discussion and get the call changed. If it is an umpire who I cannot stand and have no desire to get along with, I might be more abrubt and less tactful than if it is somebody I like, but the bottom line is, do not allow your partner to make up a rule out of thin air.

Peter
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Old Thu Jun 22, 2006, 08:03am
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I agree with WWTB on this issue.

That said, I've never been able to figure out what happens when the partner who intervenes is wrong. (Suppose, in an alternate parallel universe, the rules are such that having the glove above the chin is a balk. Tim forgets the rule and follows the advice, puts his game face on , and argues to get the call changed. Now what?)
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Old Fri Jun 23, 2006, 05:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
I read this and I had to laugh. I had a partner completely walk all over my completely good balk call and you give two big thumbs up. On the other hand, you have a partner blow one all to hell and yet you fail to even utter a single word. Hope your properly equipped when you straddle the fence next time.
Which balk call was that? Certainly you're not talking about that one months ago, are you? Refresh our memory, would you please? As I recall, it wasn't a completely good call at all, but give us another chance to change our opinions.
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Old Fri Jun 23, 2006, 08:48pm
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The non balk call he's referring to was one where neither him or his partner made the call on an obvious balk. Then when his partner was challenged on the call he hung him out to dry saying that he needed to learn a lesson. This was in the same thread where he admittedly made a bad call to end a game because he wanted to head home. It was an interesting way to distort the truth though, I'll give him that.


Tim.
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Old Fri Jun 23, 2006, 09:29pm
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Why do you act like a big wuss? Just wondering.
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Old Fri Jun 23, 2006, 11:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Yeah Timmy,

Steve and I would like to know why you act like a big wuss?
I LMAO!!!Laughing My *** Off
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Old Sun Jun 25, 2006, 11:50pm
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Gasp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Tim,
It appears that you've received some well intended but misguided advice. No matter whether you are working with a 40 year veteran or a first day rookie, you are out there together. While some feel that if a guy hangs himself, you should just stand by and watch what transpires, that is the opposite of what they teach professional umpires. Watch a big league crew sometime...they work in concert and protect each other, regardless of the call.

A more appropriate response may well have been to:
1) insure that no others could join the fracas
2) once #1 is done, approach your partner and LISTEN
3) when the conversation begins to turn, you step in between and keep the dramatic from happening (recall this in the NCAA tapes we discussed a few months ago?)
4) ask (at this point you don't TELL) the manager to step away and get your partner to 'consult' with you out of earshot
5) ASK your partner what he called and LISTEN
6) If he kicked it, you have to inform him or you are setting the game up for a protest and not doing your job
7) Put your game faces on and get the call made correctly - the two of you approach the coach (again, away from the fans and players) and HE informs the coach that he was applying a Fed rule in an OBR game. He eats some crow, you look like you are at his side and the both of you look like pros.
8) BUY HIM A BEER after the game - the guy doing the finger wagging always buys the first round.
9) Remember that you need him there for you when you boot one some day. It happens to all of us.
Twice, TWICE I say, in the last 15 days I have agreed with WWTB. You know, when we aren't discussing the AMLU, oh never mind.

Say! What are those four horsemen doing outside my window?

Strikes and outs!
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