Ball 4, You're Out?

[mbyron]

LMan, you'd have to judge that the "hug" was assistance in order to call interference, which seems to me unlikely.

I appreciate the sentiment, however: whenever possible, make it the coach's fault!

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'll buy that. Now comes the big question. How long do you stand there and wait before you call the BR out? You'd have to stand there until the celebration stops and possibly all the way through the hand shake line up as he hasn't deserted until he enters the dugout. Man, what a $hit storm that's going to create.

Thanks. And this was exactly my predicament. I waited about 10 or 15 seconds, waiting to see if the batter would go into the dugout. He did not.

Here is what I did: I chickened out because my rules knowledge was not strong enough and allowed the winning run. I left the field, waited about three minutes and then came back and called the coach aside to tell him what happened. I told him that had the batter gone into the dugout, I would have called him out and not allowed the winning run. He understood....but I am not sure he would have been so understanding had I known all this information at the game and made the "correct" call.

[bossman72]

This would be one of the toughest things to call in baseball - nullifying a winning run like this.

I'm on the fence on whether i'd stick around to watch the BR touch or if i would bolt after R3 touches home.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bossman72

This would be one of the toughest things to call in baseball - nullifying a winning run like this.

I'm on the fence on whether i'd stick around to watch the BR touch or if i would bolt after R3 touches home.

And just when you chose the easy way out in bolting, it would be your luck to have a coach like CoachJM or Rich Ives who knows a thing or two about the rules say, "wait a minute there, Blue!"

It may be a tough call, but coaches need to coach, and they should have drilled it into these players' thick skulls to always touch first base in these situations.

[EMD]

I would hang around until the defense said something or walked away....if the coach did not want to say something why should I. I know it's the rule, but why go that far to look for trouble unless the defense requested that you did.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

And just when you chose the easy way out in bolting, it would be your luck to have a coach like CoachJM or Rich Ives who knows a thing or two about the rules say, "wait a minute there, Blue!"

It may be a tough call, but coaches need to coach, and they should have drilled it into these players' thick skulls to always touch first base in these situations.

SD Steve,

Why thank you for your generous compliment.

Were I the defensive coach in BayStateRef's situation, I'm honestly not sure what I would do. For two reasons.

1. I'm not sure I would have the "stomach" to challenge the umpire's failure to call the runner out for "desertion" per the 4.09 Penalty. When I say that, I don't mean that I would be "afraid" to or "too intimidated" to do so, it's more a question of my peculiar notion of fairness.

The PRIMARY reason the other team scored the (apparent) winning run is that my pitcher threw a wild pitch for ball four. Too my way of thinking, the fact that the umpire didn't "bail me out" by making what MAY be the "technically correct" ruling on the play is NOT the kind of thing I would typically "appeal" on. The umpire's ruling didn't put my team at a material disadvantage, my team' PLAY did.

2. If I were to find the "stomach" to appeal, I can't figure out HOW I would do it in a procedurally correct way that would not somehow "tip-off" the offense that the BR really ought to complete his award.

My thinking on this question is also materially influenced by the commentary of a gentleman named Bob Pariseau in his reply to me on a similar (though not identical) situation on a different board from a couple of years ago. Rather than try to paraphrase what he said (and screw it up), I will simply "cut and paste" his comments here for the edification of those who care to read it.

Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau

CoachJM asked me to comment on the abandonment thread that occurred a while back. Since I'm coming in quite late in this I'll start a new thread to get it back where people will see it.

Here are my thoughts on this:

1) Abandonment is a last resort call made by the umpires when necessary to resolve what would otherwise be an impossible situation when the game needs to continue but the runners have stopped playing. When the game is apparently over there is no need to keep the game going and so no need to declare abandonment. The defense has the appeal option at it's disposal as necessary to cancel the apparent game winning run(s).

2) An Out for abandonment does not exist unless an umpire declares it. There is no after the fact review possible here that the umpire SHOULD have declared it, affecting subsequent action. It is a judgement call and not subject to outside review. The basic idea here is that subsequent action is impacted by whether or not the umpire declared the abandonment out, so the out can not be imposed AFTER THE FACT.

3) An Out for abandonment is an exception to the usual rules of what constitutes a force out. Never treat an Out declared for abandonment as a force out even if the runner was forced to the base he never reached.

4) The Batter-Runner who has not yet reached first base can not be declared Out for abandonment. If the Batter-Runner is entitled to first base without jeopardy, and refuses to go there in a game ending situation, he can be declared out and that out WILL count as an out against him before touching first base. The same can NOT be done against R1 or R2, although it CAN be done against R3 forced home without jeopardy. Nor can it be done against BR when he IS in jeopardy -- the defense must play against him to get the out. If BR in jeopardy fails to advance and the defense leaves the field believing the game over then the umpire does NOT unilaterally declare BR out.

5) In addition to the usual causes for appeal of base running infractions, the defense is also entitled to make appeal style play to get an advantageous fourth out -- basically to keep play going to get force outs even though the third out has already occurred. In particular, the defense *CAN* "appeal" that a runner forced to a base, who has already been declared out for abandoning his effort to get to that base, in fact never reached the base -- and thus promote a non-force abandonment out into an "appeal" force out.

6) The most current interpretation is that the order of appeals matters in determining whether an appeal out is still a force out.

------------------------------------

On the action described in the original play, I would not declare R1 out for abandonment or BR out for failing to go to first -- such outs are NOT REQUIRED TO KEEP THE GAME GOING since the game winning run has apparently scored and the defense has full opportunity to play to cancel that run without having to chase R1 or BR. However the ball is still live despite the apparent end of the game and the defense can still get force outs at 2B and 1B to cancel the apparent game winning run. Their "appeal" at 1B is actually "normal" play despite what they thought. BR is Out for the second out and the force is removed on R1. Any subsequent play on R1 can no longer cancel the game winning run and thus the game really is now over.

If the game umpire had chosen to declare R1 out for abandonment for the second out, then the "appeal" at 1B against BR would indeed be the third out, cancelling the apparent game winning run.

The practical upshot of all this is to do just what the game umpire did. Treat the game as over. When the defense tags 1B declare BR Out for the second out, the force now removed on R1, and the game really IS over.
--Bob




[ Modified 6/27/2004 5:29pm by Bob Pariseau ]

JM

[LMan]

Hm. What I'm getting from Bob's (as usual) superb writeup is that we wait for either an appeal or a play on the B/R for failing to complete his advance. In our OP (unlike Bob's) a successful appeal will nullify the run and start extra innings. But how long do you wait?

I guess until the runner enters DBT or other circumstances end any chance for appeal (defense leaves infield, etc). A rather unsatisfying answer, to my small mind.

I don't understand your angst, JM. You can't really be serious that you would not appeal a decision that would save a loss and send your team into extras? They are going to rescind your Cheese Eaters' Club card any day now

[EMD]

I'd wait and talk to my partner on the field, kill about one or two minutes. If the defense coach indicates nothing, then I got nothing.

By the way, I've been gone from the this chat room for a while, I like the format.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

And just when you chose the easy way out in bolting, it would be your luck to have a coach like CoachJM or Rich Ives who knows a thing or two about the rules say, "wait a minute there, Blue!"

It may be a tough call, but coaches need to coach, and they should have drilled it into these players' thick skulls to always touch first base in these situations.

We had it happen in a LL Tournament game ( I was only spectating). I let our manager know what to do and we cancelled the winning run. Lost in the next inning anyhow. It was fun though.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by PWL

This is just a simple appeal of a missed base. They can go touch the bag with ball or appeal before all infielders have left the infield. No abandonment or desertion is involved here. If defense does it right extra innings or game over if a time limit doesn't allow them to play any longer.

I don't see any rules support for "appealing" a runner who has not touched a base to which he is entitled by rule. All the other explanations (abandonment, desertion, etc.) are supported by rule.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I don't see any rules support for "appealing" a runner who has not touched a base to which he is entitled by rule. All the other explanations (abandonment, desertion, etc.) are supported by rule.

BayStateRef,

Neither do I. As a matter of fact, the rules explicitly and unequivocally state that "abandonment" is NOT an appeal play. The umpire calls it when he judges that it has occurred.

I aslo find PWL's assertion that is a simple missed base appeal just plain wrong. It's not. The runner did not advance past his advance base without touching it - he simply hasn't advanced to it - yet.

I'm a little curious as to what exactly Rich I. advised the manager to do in the LL tournament game. When I have thought about it, were I to choose to do so, the only thing I can think of would be to:

1. Make sure my (defensive) players did NOT leave fair territory.

2. When the BR finally entered the dugout or left the field of play OR the umpires started to leave the field, request "Time!" and then appeal their misapplication of the 4.09 Penalty. However, if the umps start to leave while the BR is still in LBT,

a. I don't think it would be proper for the umpire to grant Time prior to the BR completing his award (unless he had been "incapacitated"), and
b. I'm afraid it would "tip" the offense that the BR REALLY ought to go touch 1B.

So, Rich, what DID you tell the manager to do?

BayStateRef,

FWIW, I thought the way you handled the situation in your game was fine, & I don't think I would suggest you do anything differently in the unlikely event you encounter the situation again in the future. Per Bob P.'s comments quoted above in my earlier post.

JMO

JM

[LMan]

Well, the point is not to see how we as officials can catch the offense napping here. If the runner is alerted by the def coach's request for TIME or other action, so be it. You will just have a CF as the runner scrambles around and the def tries to throw him out Stay sharp!

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by LMan

Well, the point is not to see how we as officials can catch the offense napping here. If the runner is alerted by the def coach's request for TIME or other action, so be it. You will just have a CF as the runner scrambles around and the def tries to throw him out Stay sharp!

LMan,

I see you get my point. Also, since the BR's award is "without liability", the defense tagging him (or 1B) prior to him completing the award is "nothing" - other than possibly mildly amusing, in a third world kind of way.

JM

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Babe Ruth game (14-year-olds)

Tie score. Bottom 7th. Two out. Runner on third. 3-0 count. Next pitch bounces in dirt (Ball 4) and gets away from catcher. R3 scores. Batter/runner heads for first as teammates come out from first base dugout to celebrate win. Batter/runner never reaches first base, instead joining his teammates who are on the grass between home and first. Players line up to "congratulate" other team.

What is the proper ruling? (And please cite the rule to support this.) If batter/runner is out, at what point does the umpire call it? Must the defense tag the runner? If not, at what point does the umpire rule the batter/runner out?

The others have given you the rule and authoritative opinion on the subject at hand but now reality.

When the winning run scores, we get to go home no need to go to extra innings, therefore, as soon as you see his teammates start to come out you put a stop to it right away. Something along the lines of:

"Gentlemen stay in the dugout until the game is Over"

That statement alone will get the attention of the BR to make certain he touches first base.

This year HS has made it a point of emphasis to keep players in the dugout until the game is over. HS doesn't even want players coming out on Home-Runs either. Also, in the above situation given FED rules, ALL runners have to fulfill their base running obligations not just R3 and the BR.

When it's time to Go Home make certain you go home.

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

PWL,

I agree, one should look before one leaps.

However, if you check the ruling you reference carefully, I believe you will see that it ONLY applies to a runner who has already passed 1B. As I understand the meaning of the ruling, it is that a forced runner who abandons prior to reaching his "forced to" base, even for the third out of a half inning, is NOT treated as a "run-nullifying" force out - rather, as you say, any runners who scored prior to the umpire calling the abandonment, are allowed to score. Unless the defense subsequently "appeals", thereby "establishing" the run-nullifying "force".

On the other hand, ANYTIME a Batter-Runner is out prior to reaching 1B for the third out of the half-inning, no run can score on the play in which he became a runner. The ruling you reference doesn't say anything different.

Good point about "looking & leaping" though.

JM