over rule partners call...

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I don't know that I agree. The chance of a runner missing home plate when there is no play on him is virtually incalcuable, whereas, a play at first where you're partner may need help on a tag, pulled foot or basepath violation is, relatively speaking, likely. Also chances are very good that the runners touched their respective bases prior to the throw reaching 1st base anyway and the PU could have accomplished both tasks.
If r2 had cleared F5 and then BEAREF looked to first, I think he did good.
I certainly would not be making clear cut statements like 'you messed up'

Besides, he did let him make the call. He didn't offer anything until asked and then only told him what he saw, BU was clearly in err here, not the PU.

I agree. In the two man mechanics, the emphasis is where the "most likely" play is going to happen. Indeed, in this situation, 99 out of 100 times, there is going to be an out, but the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home. I see WAY more pulled foots at 1st than I see runners missing 3rd and home! PERIOD!!!

You did the right thing. Your partner is a moron if he didn't change his call after asking what you seen, and you clearly had a better angle! I would ask my assignor to never assign me to another game with a guy that did that! Most likely, that kind of request would assure that he never again did a higher level game!

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

but the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home.

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

I'm not arguing the mechanic, but let's go to reality.

1. I'm not umpiring to please the evaluator, rather to arbitrate a fair game. As this case proves, it's much more likely fairness will be served with 4 eyes on first.
When was the last time you had an appeal at home plate for an uncontested run?
2. Bases loaded 2 outs bottom of 7th. Tell me the evaluators eyes are going to be on PU not on the play at first.
3. When evaluator sees the blatant miss at first, then sees BU ask for help and your response is "sorry didn't see it, had my nose pointed to home making sure the runner didn't miss that wide open plate." Tell me the evaluator is going to say "great job"

And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home. Every other eye in the park is going to be locked on to first. So even if he misses the plate by an inch or two you'll be the only one knowing. In the meantime you can explain to the coach you didn't see the play, but be assured coach I know the staus of r3 and home plate. I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.

[johnSandlin]

I have always believed in the mechanic of "putting a call on the record" first. If the crowd or the base runner look at you strange then go get help.

Never overule your partner without being asked for help first. it makes you and the whole crew look bad.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by NIump50

And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home. Every other eye in the park is going to be locked on to first. So even if he misses the plate by an inch or two you'll be the only one knowing. In the meantime you can explain to the coach you didn't see the play, but be assured coach I know the staus of r3 and home plate. I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.

In the original play, the count was 3-2 with 2 out, bases loaded. So of course the runners would be running on the pitch. If this ground ball is far to the right of F6, then there is a good chance that the BR will be able to beat the throw. If R2 is fast, he might have a chance to score on this play.

I understand that you want to help out with the call at first, but what if R2 cuts third base, he misses it by 10 feet? You're not going to see that because you are staring at first base. You'll be forced to rule safe on the appeal because you didn't see it. I'm sure the defensive team will take solace knowing that you were right on top of that pulled foot instead of noticing runner miss a base by 10 feet.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by LDUB

In the original play, the count was 3-2 with 2 out, bases loaded. So of course the runners would be running on the pitch. If this ground ball is far to the right of F6, then there is a good chance that the BR will be able to beat the throw. If R2 is fast, he might have a chance to score on this play.

I understand that you want to help out with the call at first, but what if R2 cuts third base, he misses it by 10 feet? You're not going to see that because you are staring at first base. You'll be forced to rule safe on the appeal because you didn't see it. I'm sure the defensive team will take solace knowing that you were right on top of that pulled foot instead of noticing runner miss a base by 10 feet.

If you look at a prior post I specifically said once R2 clears F5. (see post #8 this thread)
Implied in that is
1. Checking for obstruction
2. R2 makes proper turn at third.

My comment you are reffering to was directly related to watching an uncontested runner touch home rather than seeing the play at first.
It had nothing to do with the PU responsibility at third.

"And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home"

I'll take solace knowing your criticism and sarcasm was unfounded, and probably due to your hectic schedule causing an inability to focus, comprehend and grasp the subject at hand.
As opposed to just unable to comprehend.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by NIump50

If you look at a prior post I specifically said once R2 clears F5. (see post #8 this thread)
Implied in that is
1. Checking for obstruction
2. R2 makes proper turn at third.

In the original play F6 fielded the ball. That means that F5 would have taken at least a step or two to his left from his starting position. When R2 clears F5 he is not at all close to third base yet. So there is no way that anyone would think you are watching the touch of third base.

Originally Posted by NIump50

My comment you are reffering to was directly related to watching an uncontested runner touch home rather than seeing the play at first.
It had nothing to do with the PU responsibility at third.

So you are saying that touches of third are more important than touches of home? I guess you've never seen runners obviously miss bases on home runs.

Originally Posted by NIump50

"And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home"

A smart team would have someone in the dugout assigned to watch the base touches, and someone else to watch the umpires to see if they are watching the base touches.

Originally Posted by NIump50

I'll take solace knowing your criticism and sarcasm was unfounded, and probably due to your hectic schedule causing an inability to focus, comprehend and grasp the subject at hand.
As opposed to just unable to comprehend.

Your posts in this thred are crazy. No one knows what side you are on.

Summary of this thread:

**Thom Coste says to watch the base touches.
**You reply to Thom " I don't know that I agree"
**pdxblue replies to you "I agree...the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home."
**mcrowder says pdxblue is wrong
**You reply to mcrowder by saying "I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count."

So far it is Thom and mcrowder who say to watch the touches, and you and pdxblue who say to watch the pulled foot.

**pdxblue disagrees with mcrowder
**RPatrino says to watch base touches
**I disagree with you (remember pdxblue is on your side saying to not watch the touches)
**You claim that you are for watching the base touches, going against what pdxblue would do

Obviously no one on this forum can understand which side of this discussion you are on.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by LDUB

In the original play F6 fielded the ball. That means that F5 would have taken at least a step or two to his left from his starting position. When R2 clears F5 he is not at all close to third base yet. So there is no way that anyone would think you are watching the touch of third base..

Or the ball could have been a shot one step to F6s right and F5 moved to the bag in case F6 came his way for the force. Therefore putting F5 directly at the bag.
I'm not going to write a book to cover all the possibilities. I think most people caught the implication when I said R2 clears F5. If you didn't understand, maybe you could have asked.
I also could not just say "once r2 touches third" because F5 could be sitting on the corner of the bag or playing in on the grass and could still obstruct after the touch. R2 clearing F5 seemed to be a general enough statement to get my point accross.

Originally Posted by LDUB

So you are saying that touches of third are more important than touches of home I guess you've never seen runners obviously miss bases on home runs.?.

I was speaking specifically to this situation, not a homerun where all the focus is on the BR.
When was the last time you had an uncontested runner miss the plate while a play was being made on another runner and had it appealed?

Originally Posted by LDUB

A smart team would have someone in the dugout assigned to watch the base touches, and someone else to watch the umpires to see if they are watching the base touches..

You're joking right?
In this sitch everyone in the defensive dugout and on the field will be watching 1st as the throw leaves F6s hand.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Your posts in this thred are crazy. No one knows what side you are on.

Summary of this thread:

**Thom Coste says to watch the base touches.
**You reply to Thom " I don't know that I agree".

I agreed at third, posted my exception for home.
I noted that seeing both was probable, but in this situation I would not forego watching first to see the foot hit home.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**pdxblue replies to you "I agree...the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home."
**mcrowder says pdxblue is wrong.

What has this got to do with me?
PDX mispoke if he is coupling his agreement with me to ignoring 3rd.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**You reply to mcrowder by saying "I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.".

That is a correct quote. IMO, Mcrowder was saying that PU had no business watching first, only responsibility was to watch R3 touch home.
This quote was in response to that sentiment.
I still stand by my posts.
In this situation, PU seeing the play at first trumps watching R3 touch home if doing both can't be done.

Originally Posted by LDUB

So far it is Thom and mcrowder who say to watch the touches, and you and pdxblue who say to watch the pulled foot..

Oversimplification, but with a wide brush is true.
Perhaps that is all you are capable of.

Originally Posted by LDUB

**pdxblue disagrees with mcrowder
**RPatrino says to watch base touches
**I disagree with you (remember pdxblue is on your side saying to not watch the touches)
**You claim that you are for watching the base touches, going against what pdxblue would do

Obviously no one on this forum can understand which side of this discussion you are on.

On the contrary, I think most understand which side I'm on.
They may not agree with my side, but I've been very clear.

In case you still don't know where I stand, here's the simple explanation.

Third base important
Home plate not as important as first.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

Thankfully, I am not working games with you!

[RPatrino]

As the PU, you can still watch runner's touch at 3rd and home, AND line up 1st base for pulled foot and swipes.

Simply, while on 1st base line extended, back up a little bit and widen your field of vision. You don't have to zero in on the bases and wait for the runners, all you do is watch the ball and glance at the runners.

It is a gross error, if as the PU, you neglect your responsibility to watch touch/tags of 3rd and home, bottom line.