Unusual Balk Call

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by UMP25

... Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):

Customs and Usage: For practical enforcement purposes, stepping directly means stepping within 45 degrees of a direct, straight line to the base. In other words, the pitcher is NOT stepping MORE toward a different base than the one to which he is throwing.

JM

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):



JM

I'm not going to go of on a different rule now (BTW, I learned from Jaksa and Roder at school). Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

[mbyron]

I have a theory about where people are getting the idea that throwing to F3 off the base MUST be a balk. It's true that when F3 is playing back (say, with R1, R2), the pitcher can't throw to F3 when F3 is in no position to make a play on R1. But it doesn't follow that you can NEVER throw to F3 when he is off the bag. That's almost as silly as saying that because the rule says "throw to a base," it's a balk if a PLAYER catches the throw.

The purpose of the balk rule is to give the runner a chance of stealing a base by imposing restrictions on how the pitcher can hold him on. I believe that it's within the spirit of the rule (and accepted practice) to allow a throw to F3 off the bag if he has a reasonable chance to make a play - the same rationale, by the way, for allowing F1 to throw to 2B with R1. Provided F1 complied with the other requirements (stepping ahead of throw, etc.) I would not have ruled a balk the given case (F3 six feet from 1B, tags out R1).

[3appleshigh]

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by 3appleshigh

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

I think you're getting a bit too worked up by "what the rule book says." Remember, what the actual words say is not as clear as what official interps. say. The latter often clear up ambiguities and other things that are often vague. For example, this whole concept of throwing to F3 who is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1 isn't even in the book.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this.

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base. It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

SCUMP... let's hear the sarcasm...

[SAump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base.

Right.

Originally Posted by ctblu40

It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

Wrong.

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SAump

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

Ah... I see the flaw in my theory.

I used the Pythagorean Theorem for right triangles. This will not work since the measurement from home to first is to the back edge of the bag but from home to second, it's to the middle...

[UMP25]

You're looking at the square the wrong way. While from home to second the distance is 90 x radical 2, I'm hoping folks can cut the 90-foot square into two halves. The top half would be from third to second to first with the diagonal to third, the bottom half from first to home to third, with the same diagonal. The rubber does not rest on this diagonal, so a 45* angle isn't possible. The rubber sits in front of the diagonal.

I'll leave it up to the math geniuses to figure out just how much away from the diagonal the rubber is.

[ctblu40]

The rubber (if I'm envisioning your triangles properly) lies 1.5 feet to the outside of the triangle. I think...