Feint from windup

[SAump]

From the windup, the pitcher may step and feints to third and then step and feint to first. This is legal. Joe Morgan and Harold Reynolds types alway talk about how the play never works on TV. It is designed to see if the offense is planning to steal in an effort to keep it honest. Well, every now and then, it does work. I "think" this is what you had in mind in the opening thread. I hope it clears it up for you, if someone else has not done so already.

[SanDiegoSteve]

That play is very common at every level of play. However, I am quite certain that Morgan, McCarver, Reynolds, et al, are referring to doing it from the set position, as this is the position a pitcher takes on the rubber when runners are at the corners.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by PWL

Just like it says, 8.01(a) [1] throw to the batter [2] step and throw to a base to pick off a runner [3] disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hands to his side). When the pitcher is in the windup position, anything considered a start and a stop is considered a balk. He doesn't throw to the base. BALK.

If first move must commit him to pitch.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay, then the whole rule needs a rewrite in plain, understandable English. As it is, it appears to have been written by Norm Crosby.

Why would you expect rule 8 to be any different from the other rules?

Heck, maybe someone should come up with a "reorganization" of the rules book.

I have gone 21 years now without ever seeing a feint from the windup. I have seen maybe 2 or 3 throws to 3rd base from the windup. I will probably go another 21 without seeing a feint from the windup. I guess I wanted to know just in case!

That's exactly why it's not in the book. As soon as one MLB pitcher does it, and there's a controversy, some clarification will be issued.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Heck, maybe someone should come up with a "reorganization" of the rules book.

I thought that was called, "J/R?"

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL[/B

[/B]] If the pitcher begins any motion from the windup and stops without delivering the ball, IT AIN'T NOTHING BUT A BIG OLD BALK, PERIOD.

8.01(a) ....From this position any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration....

[LakeErieUmp]

Not to beat this dead horse to death, but I'm trying to visualize how from a windup a RIGHT-HANDED pitcher can step and throw to THIRD base in an attempt to pick-off a runner without a "natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter". To first, yes, because stepping to first is not a natural move associated with a pitch. But can he cross his left leg over his right and throw to THIRD under OBR 8.01(a) and comment?
Also, I'm beyond confused in this thread. Where is there anything in the OBR windup rules that permits a FEINT to ANYWHERE while engaged to the rubber?
As always, your help is appreciated.

[DG]

OBR: A feint to 2b or 3b is permissable from the set. It is also permissable from the windup. It is not permissable to 1B from set or windup.

FED: A feint is not permissable from the windup to any base.

[LakeErieUmp]

DG - That's where I'm lost. I can't justify a feint in OBR since the options are throw (or feint) to a base or pitch. I can't see how from a windup a right handed pitcher can move his free foot across the front of his body toward third without making a motion natural to a pitch? His free foot has to come toward the plate on the way to stepping to third, unlike stepping to first. So feint or throw I can't visualize how a righty can do it.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Not to beat this dead horse to death, but I'm trying to visualize how from a windup a RIGHT-HANDED pitcher can step and throw to THIRD base in an attempt to pick-off a runner without a "natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter". To first, yes, because stepping to first is not a natural move associated with a pitch. But can he cross his left leg over his right and throw to THIRD under OBR 8.01(a) and comment?
Also, I'm beyond confused in this thread. Where is there anything in the OBR windup rules that permits a FEINT to ANYWHERE while engaged to the rubber?
As always, your help is appreciated.

The OBR, when addressing the pitcher feinting to a base, does not distinguish between set and windup positon - the rules simply and consistently say "while touching his plate." Specifically, the only enabling language at all in the OBR - the very awkwardly worded statement in 8.05(c) that says "A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps" does NOT limit itself to the pitcher being in set position. 8.05(c) merely begins with "The pitcher, while touching his plate..."

[LakeErieUmp]

Right, but from the set your free foot is in FRONT of your pivot foot so you can step to third without passing the plate on the way. From the windup your free foot HAS TO pass the plate since it's moving from the first base side of the rubber to the third base side, which looks like the natural movement of a pitch to the plate.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Right, but from the set your free foot is in FRONT of your pivot foot so you can step to third without passing the plate on the way. From the windup your free foot HAS TO pass the plate since it's moving from the first base side of the rubber to the third base side, which looks like the natural movement of a pitch to the plate.

From Jim Evans:

A pitcher may use a motion common to both delivery of the pitch and delivery of a pick-off throw in some cases and this shall not be deemed a balk. For example: A left-hander starts his delivery to the batter in the same motion as he starts his pick-off attempt. This is legal as long as his motion does not violate any other rule.

I would consider a direct step to third base by a RHP that had some initial common movement with a move to the plate to fall within the concept Evans is describing.

[UmpJM]

LakeErieUmp,

If I understand your point correctly, you seem to be hung up on the free foot "passing the plate" during the (RHP's) direct step to 3B. Why do you think this should be balked? I don't think, in and of itself, "passing the plate" should be balked.

Balk experts?

JM

[LakeErieUmp]

CoachJM - Because, traditionally, the set position was keeping runners on/throw back to base while the windup was concede the steal. R3 will take X lead with the pitcher in the set but will take X+ with the pitcher in the windup. If the pitcher can basically feint a pitch by stepping toward home but then continuing to a throw to third there is no difference between set and windup. That being the case, why would a pitcher want to use the set which takes away some leg kick and power behind his pitch? It seems the feint in a SET was read between the lines to let a pitcher - holding the runners back - not have to waste time throwing to the base he's feinting to.
But if the consensus is otherwise I'll go with what you all say from your better experience than mine.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Right, but from the set your free foot is in FRONT of your pivot foot so you can step to third without passing the plate on the way. From the windup your free foot HAS TO pass the plate since it's moving from the first base side of the rubber to the third base side, which looks like the natural movement of a pitch to the plate.

It's the same thing as RH F1, from the set, swinging the free-foot pst first to throw (or feint) to second. The motion of the free foot, in-and-of itself, does not commit F1 to throw to the first base the free-foot passes.

Other motions F1 makes (the "rocker step", raising both hands above the head, etc.) might commit F1 to pitch. Merely moving the free foot toward third does not.