Feint from windup

[SanDiegoSteve]

I posted in another thread somewhere that the pitcher can only do 3 things from the windup position.

I have searched all of my alphabet soup resource manuals, etc., and cannot find a decent interpretation. I have reviewed all relevant threads on this forum through an exhaustive search, including the huge 9 page thread on throwing to a base from the windup, from last March. I can't find what I'm looking for.

So, with that in mind, I pose this question:

Is it legal to feint to 2nd and 3rd base from the windup position?

Rule 8.01 (a) Comments (2) says he may step and throw to a base, but it does not mention feinting. Is it a balk if he feints to a base from the windup?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I posted in another thread somewhere that the pitcher can only do 3 things from the windup position.

I have searched all of my alphabet soup resource manuals, etc., and cannot find a decent interpretation. I have reviewed all relevant threads on this forum through an exhaustive search, including the huge 9 page thread on throwing to a base from the windup, from last March. I can't find what I'm looking for.

So, with that in mind, I pose this question:

Is it legal to feint to 2nd and 3rd base from the windup position?

Rule 8.01 (a) Comments (2) says he may step and throw to a base, but it does not mention feinting. Is it a balk if he feints to a base from the windup?

It's very poorly covered in the OBR, but is expanded on more definitively in the authoritative literature. The only OBR reference I can cite is this from 8.05(c): "A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps."

This is expanded on in the MLB 2002 Umpire Manual, and the concept is repeated in other manuals.

MLB 2002 Umpire Manual:
When a pitcher swings any part of his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, it is a balk if he does not pitch to the batter, unless he throws (or feints a throw) to second base on a pick-off play.

NOTE: The pitcher is required to step directly toward a
base when feinting a throw to a base.

A pitcher must step directly toward a base before throwing or feinting to that base, but he is not required to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

Jaksa-Roder:
The possibilities of an in-contact pitcher's actions are:
a) to pitch,
b) to step and throw (or feint a throw) to a base,

Jim Evans:
Customs and Usage: A pitcher may not feint a throw to 1st base, but he can feint a throw to other bases if he steps legally.

Hope this helps.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I have all of these too, but I was looking for language that specifically deals with the windup position. All of the above seem to infer the set position, since that is the normal way to pick off runners. 8.01 (a) only says the pitcher may step and throw from the windup, but does not mention feinting.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I have all of these too, but I was looking for language that specifically deals with the windup position. All of the above seem to infer the set position, since that is the normal way to pick off runners. 8.01 (a) only says the pitcher may step and throw from the windup, but does not mention feinting.

8.01(b) doesn't mention feinting either, so why do you think it's allowed in one case and not the other?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by PWL

OBR-From the windup position, the pitcher shall throw to the base. Failure to do so is a balk. In order to feint, he must disengage the rubber properly.

FED-The pitcher cannot throw to a base from the windup position. He must disengage the rubber properly first. He shall also break his hands after he disengages the rubber and not during so, or that shall be considered a balk.

Just where did you find the OBR ruling?

[UmpJM]

Rich,

He didn't find it anywhere - he made it up.

As I'm sure you know, it is incorrect. I did not find this surprising. Did you?

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

8.01(b) doesn't mention feinting either, so why do you think it's allowed in one case and not the other?

Because in 8.01(a) it is specifically stated that he may step and throw only. It does not state that he can throw or make a legal feint. That is why I'm asking. It is not the normal case for a pitcher to attempt a pickoff from the windup position. I read the big, long thread from last year on the subject, and the consensus was that pickoffs from the windup position are very rare.

8.05(c) seems to indicate that the pitcher can feint to any base except first while touching his plate. Is it in the forum's opinion that this includes from the windup, or are they assumed to be talking about the set position, because feinting is specifically banned in the windup by rule?

[UmpJM]

Steve,

By my read, the OBR rules regarding throwing/feinting are identical for the pitcher regardless of whether he assumes a Windup or Set position.

I assure you that there are many coaches who "know" that it's illegal to make any pick-off move from a windup position without first disengaging. While this IS true under FED, it is false under OBR.

JM

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I have all of these too, but I was looking for language that specifically deals with the windup position. All of the above seem to infer the set position, since that is the normal way to pick off runners. 8.01 (a) only says the pitcher may step and throw from the windup, but does not mention feinting.

Neither the OBR, the MLBUM nor the Jim Evans citations I gave specify that they are dealing with set position rather than windup. Windup and set are both legal pitching positions; if feinting were allowed from one legal position but not the other, surely there would be a specific proscription.

Evans has this to say specifically about windup:

Legal Actions From The Windup Position:
1. Deliver the ball to the batter.
2. Step with the free foot toward a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner.
3. Step back off the rubber with the pivot foot first. By doing this, the pitcher becomes an ordinary infielder and all rules pertaining to overthrows and awards are based on this fact. 7.05(g), 8.01(e)

I think that's as definitive as it gets; if it's not good enough for whomever you're trying to convince, well, all I can say is good night and good luck.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

...well, all I can say is good night and good luck.

Good night and good luck to you too, sir!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Just like it says, 8.01(a) [1] throw to the batter [2] step and throw to a base to pick off a runner [3] disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hands to his side). When the pitcher is in the windup position, anything considered a start and a stop is considered a balk. He doesn't throw to the base. BALK.

That is what I thought too. That is why I was asking for anybody to show me different. Nobody has yet, except to tell me that I'm wrong. Why in the world would either: a) the rule book not specifically state that feints are permitted from the windup, or b) any interpretation clarify the question that begs to be clarified? We are left to think either a) feinting must be okay from the windup since it is from the set, and after all, there is no distinction made, or b) it is a balk since 8.01(a) as much as says so.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Just like it says, 8.01(a) [1] throw to the batter [2] step and throw to a base to pick off a runner [3] disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hands to his side). When the pitcher is in the windup position, anything considered a start and a stop is considered a balk. He doesn't throw to the base. BALK.

Applying this logic it would also be prohibited for a pitcher to feint to a base from the set as well.

8.01(a)

"From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot."

Notice that there's no mention that feinting is prohibited from the set either.

I think Dave has the right idea. If feinting to a base from the windup was prohibited it would have been addressed.


Tim.

[UmpJM]

Steve,

Have you seen this (my emphasis)?

(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

As you will notice, it says exactly the same thing regarding what a pitcher in the Set position may do as what 8.01(a) says a pitcher in the Windup position may do.

Then in the "comment" following 8.05(c), we have the marvelously tortured sentence:

...A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. ...

which lets us know that the pitcher (whether in Set or Windup, since 8.05 makes no distinction between the two) need not throw in making a move to 2B or 3B.

The rules are identical for windup and set. You already "know" that a pitcher can "feint" from Set. Since the rules are the same, and no credible interpretation says you can't (legally) feint from the windup, you can.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, then the whole rule needs a rewrite in plain, understandable English. As it is, it appears to have been written by Norm Crosby.

I have gone 21 years now without ever seeing a feint from the windup. I have seen maybe 2 or 3 throws to 3rd base from the windup. I will probably go another 21 without seeing a feint from the windup. I guess I wanted to know just in case!

[UmpJM]

Strike Three!