Strike zone

[insatty]

I believe in the old saw that calling balls and strikes takes 50% timing and 50% courage. And you definitely need the courage to call the high strike that the NCAA requires. Our local collegiate umpiring association evaluates each on calling the zone according to the NCAA emphasis points. So if an umpire resists the high strike because of the moans, groans, and *****ing, he will not be invited back for the next season. One of the reasons there still is residual *****ing over the high strikes is because some of the "old dogs" want more to be liked than good.

So in order to survive in the world in which I umpire, I call the high strike and get tough on the *****ing early and often. But I find that if it is called consistently for both sides, the complaining doesn't last past the third inning.

Other than that, kudos to Rich F. and T. Alan for telling it like it is. Perception is reality in the balls-and-strikes game, so the catcher must make the pitch look good. And the umpire who is courageous enough to call a lot of strikes is the one that moves up.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by insatty

I believe in the old saw that calling balls and strikes takes 50% timing and 50% courage. And you definitely need the courage to call the high strike that the NCAA requires. Our local collegiate umpiring association evaluates each on calling the zone according to the NCAA emphasis points. So if an umpire resists the high strike because of the moans, groans, and *****ing, he will not be invited back for the next season. One of the reasons there still is residual *****ing over the high strikes is because some of the "old dogs" want more to be liked than good.

So in order to survive in the world in which I umpire, I call the high strike and get tough on the *****ing early and often. But I find that if it is called consistently for both sides, the complaining doesn't last past the third inning.

Other than that, kudos to Rich F. and T. Alan for telling it like it is. Perception is reality in the balls-and-strikes game, so the catcher must make the pitch look good. And the umpire who is courageous enough to call a lot of strikes is the one that moves up.

Oh yes, the high strike. That one hasn't been a problem in my area. It's as simple as "The NCAA wants it, and I'm calling it." Really, most of the D3 coaches (that's all there is in my area, for the most part) are OK with it.

The problem most lower-level umpires face when "moving up" is being consistent on the knee. Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee and tracking and timing are crucial to getting that pitch and being consistent with it.

I won't ball a cockshot that gets dropped and I even called a strike on a pitch caught palm up yesterday that seemed to cross up the catcher. So it's not a hard and fast rule, but a good catcher can certainly buy a few strikes for his F1.

[Tim C]

You have kinda sorta defined yourself as a low level, little guy umpire.

Let me explain:

1) There are two types of umpires: a) by the book and b) and 'real world' umpires.

2) I don't expect you to agree.

3) Many of us work a pretty high quality of ball every day . . . trust us that we know what we speak of . . .

4) Once you work a higher level of ball, get back to us, as your opinon 'may' change.

5) I am not going to make an effort to change your thinking,

All-in-all, I work my level, under my guidelines, and find that my success is just fine.

Regards,

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Tim C

You have kinda sorta defined yourself as a low level, little guy umpire.

Let me explain:

1) There are two types of umpires: a) by the book and b) and 'real world' umpires.,

In the real world there are cowards, brown nosers, lemmings, pretenders, con men, men of integrity and law abiding citizens. We all choose our own path.

Originally Posted by Tim C

2) I don't expect you to agree.

Good, because I don't

Originally Posted by Tim C

3) Many of us work a pretty high quality of ball every day . . . trust us that we know what we speak of . .

See a strike call a ball. Give me one good reason that has some integrity.

Originally Posted by Tim C

4) Once you work a higher level of ball, get back to us, as your opinon 'may' change..,

When my backbone becomes mush my opinion may change.

Originally Posted by Tim C

All-in-all, I work my level, under my guidelines, and find that my success is just fine.

I never questioned your success. I simply questioned your statement that a ball over the plate at the knee that ends up in the dirt cannot be a strike.
You were adament about it.
You make sure you talk about the level of ball you ump every post, but I've yet to hear the justification of your statement.
Please tell me why a ball in the strike zone cannot be called a strike.

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

So far, the only people I’ve found who believe hitting a “spot” is actually hitting the glove without it moving, and really believe it happens a high percentage of times, are very young and inexperienced.

More experienced people seem to consider “spots” as being approximately the size of a C’s mitt, or roughly a circle 15” in diameter.

I thought it was ridiculously huge until it was explained to me that a C’s mitt is about 15” across. If a ball hit dead center of the mitt, it would be perfect, but if the C had to move the mitt just 7-8” to get the ball, that’s still pretty darn good. So, 7-8” left/right/up/down would mean the pocket is pretty close to the outside edge of the original glove position, and that would make the circle roughly 15” across.

Accepting that as a “spot”, most of the more experienced people I’ve talked to seem to think a really accurate P like a Maddux, will still only be able to hit his “spot” at best maybe 70% of the time on a good day, which would make a pretty darn good college P maybe 50% accurate.

Is that what you consider “throwing darts”, are you finding something higher or lower as a good number, or is your meaning of “dart” something else entirely?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by buckweat

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

So far, the only people I’ve found who believe hitting a “spot” is actually hitting the glove without it moving, and really believe it happens a high percentage of times, are very young and inexperienced.

More experienced people seem to consider “spots” as being approximately the size of a C’s mitt, or roughly a circle 15” in diameter.

I thought it was ridiculously huge until it was explained to me that a C’s mitt is about 15” across. If a ball hit dead center of the mitt, it would be perfect, but if the C had to move the mitt just 7-8” to get the ball, that’s still pretty darn good. So, 7-8” left/right/up/down would mean the pocket is pretty close to the outside edge of the original glove position, and that would make the circle roughly 15” across.

Accepting that as a “spot”, most of the more experienced people I’ve talked to seem to think a really accurate P like a Maddux, will still only be able to hit his “spot” at best maybe 70% of the time on a good day, which would make a pretty darn good college P maybe 50% accurate.

Is that what you consider “throwing darts”, are you finding something higher or lower as a good number, or is your meaning of “dart” something else entirely?

It's not what I meant. What I meant, really, was that pitchers throw pitches that start near the knee and finish near the knee and getting that pitch right is crucial.

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's not what I meant. What I meant, really, was that pitchers throw pitches that start near the knee and finish near the knee and getting that pitch right is crucial.

OOPS! Sorry. ;-)

Could you explain a bit more about starting at the knee and finishing at the knee?

I'm trying to picture it but having difficulty.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by buckweat

OOPS! Sorry. ;-)

Could you explain a bit more about starting at the knee and finishing at the knee?

I'm trying to picture it but having difficulty.

That's about the best way I can explain it. It's a pitch that starts down in the zone and stays down in the zone and if you're lazy, you'll give up on it and ball it. This is a strike, unlike that pitch caught at the ankles.

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

That's about the best way I can explain it. It's a pitch that starts down in the zone and stays down in the zone and if you're lazy, you'll give up on it and ball it. This is a strike, unlike that pitch caught at the ankles.

Now that I can picture and understand. Thanx!

I sure hope you guys understand that I’m not just doin’ this rile anyone. I’m truly interested in finding out why things work the way they do, and its exchanges like this thread that help do that. I’ve just never been one of those guys who takes, "IT IS WHAT IT IS" for an answer, without some kind of reasonable explanation.

Along these same lines, if anyone’s ever had the dubious pleasure of being “graded” by QuesTec”, I’d sure like to know exactly what the purpose of the thing is, and what exactly it is that you see when you throw the DVD in the player.

I’d also be curious to know how it would “score” one of those pitches that seems to be bringing out such angst. I.e., a pitch that crosses the zone at the bottom and front of the plate, but hits the dirt in front of the C.

[DG]

Originally Posted by buckweat

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

The "spot" is what gets the batter out. If a higher level pitcher throws a fastball 3 inches outside on an 0-2 count it's because he meant to, not because he missed, so call it a ball. If he then throws one on the edge of the black outside, it's because he meant to, knowing that you will not call it 3 inches outside, so call it a strike.

The spot is a welled placed pitch, under a given situation.

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by DG

The "spot" is what gets the batter out. If a higher level pitcher throws a fastball 3 inches outside on an 0-2 count it's because he meant to, not because he missed, so call it a ball. If he then throws one on the edge of the black outside, it's because he meant to, knowing that you will not call it 3 inches outside, so call it a strike.

The spot is a welled placed pitch, under a given situation.

I surely won’t argue, but your opinion about how accurately a P can throw a ball is vastly different than what I’ve seen or been told. No biggie.

Can I assume that where the C is seeing up is having an effect on your call? FI, if the C set up inside on that 2nd pitch it’d be a ball.

[DG]

Originally Posted by buckweat

I surely won’t argue, but your opinion about how accurately a P can throw a ball is vastly different than what I’ve seen or been told. No biggie.

Can I assume that where the C is seeing up is having an effect on your call? FI, if the C set up inside on that 2nd pitch it’d be a ball.

If the pitcher can't hit the spot then there is no spot. And hell yes, how the catcher catches it is a factor. If he is set up inside and the pitch is on the black outside, it's a ball. The spot is where you and the catcher expect it to be, and when it ain't, well it ain't.

I called a 2-0 game yesterday with 2 pitcher's who went the distance for their team. Both were hitting the spots, the game lasted 1:40 and I heard no complaints from anyone about balls and strikes, because when they hit the spot and I called a strike and when they didn't it was because they were trying to get the batter to swing at one that was not on the spot. Sometimes they swing at a pitch off the spot, and sometimes they don't. I only called one K looking and he walked off before I made the call, because he knew...