Strike zone

[Rich]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Nothing to do with perception. He said a ball that catches the knee(i'm assuming over the plate) and then breaks to the dirt cannot be called a strike.
Are you suggesting we poll the audience before we make our calls?
I thought the ol umpire slogan was 'I call em the way I see em'

If everyone in the park thinks the hands are part of the bat, do I make my call based on there opinion?
If everyone in the park thinks a tie goes to the runner, do I make my call accordingly?
If everyone in the park thinks a foul tip is a foul ball should I rule foul ball?
I think you get my point.
Why should a pitch judged by you to have crossed the strike zone and picked cleanly by the catcher be called anything but a strike?
All things being equal, if you see a strike and call a ball you're a coward.

OK, when you start working games that are NOT on the small diamond, come back and tell us how your "philosophy" is working for you.

BTW, if a curve ball doesn't finish and the catcher doesn't stick the pitch, I don't see a strike and neither does anyone else. Well, except you.

[nickrego]

See a Balk, Call a Balk.

See a Strike that looks like a Ball, call it a Ball. (because that's what everybody else saw)

Judgment is what officiating is all about. If you don't want to do it (make judgments that is), then don't do it (Officiate, that is)...Jedd Clampett

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I now know all I need to know about your umpire ability, the level of baseball you work and your believability.

It makes it easy for me to give your posts the interest they deserve.

Regards,

Apparently in your world, whoever has the loudest and most intimidating coach gets the calls.
Quite frankly i could care less what you think of me or my abilities. Any one too scared to call a strike a strike has shown me all i need to see about their character and believability.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Apparently in your world, whoever has the loudest and most intimidating coach gets the calls.
Quite frankly i could care less what you think of me or my abilities. Any one too scared to call a strike a strike has shown me all i need to see about their character and believability.

Your clear lack of understanding of how the game works at higher levels is all I need to know about your experience and ability.

[insatty]

I believe in the old saw that calling balls and strikes takes 50% timing and 50% courage. And you definitely need the courage to call the high strike that the NCAA requires. Our local collegiate umpiring association evaluates each on calling the zone according to the NCAA emphasis points. So if an umpire resists the high strike because of the moans, groans, and *****ing, he will not be invited back for the next season. One of the reasons there still is residual *****ing over the high strikes is because some of the "old dogs" want more to be liked than good.

So in order to survive in the world in which I umpire, I call the high strike and get tough on the *****ing early and often. But I find that if it is called consistently for both sides, the complaining doesn't last past the third inning.

Other than that, kudos to Rich F. and T. Alan for telling it like it is. Perception is reality in the balls-and-strikes game, so the catcher must make the pitch look good. And the umpire who is courageous enough to call a lot of strikes is the one that moves up.

[TussAgee11]

The one fastball that comes right down the middle but is dropped is a strike in my book. Anything on the corners that the catcher is flying out to get, and the glove keeps moving out after he catches the pitch. BALL! Catcher not up far enough and curveball in the dirt. BALL!

Consider it the penalty for allowing me to get hit on every ball in the dirt while that catcher is playing.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Apparently in your world, whoever has the loudest and most intimidating coach gets the calls.
Quite frankly i could care less what you think of me or my abilities. Any one too scared to call a strike a strike has shown me all i need to see about their character and believability.

This isn't slow pitch softball. There isn't one high quality umpire I know that will call a hard breaking curve a strike if it's caught just off of the dirt. Not one! I don't care where it crosses, I'm not calling that crap a strike.



Tim.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by insatty

I believe in the old saw that calling balls and strikes takes 50% timing and 50% courage. And you definitely need the courage to call the high strike that the NCAA requires. Our local collegiate umpiring association evaluates each on calling the zone according to the NCAA emphasis points. So if an umpire resists the high strike because of the moans, groans, and *****ing, he will not be invited back for the next season. One of the reasons there still is residual *****ing over the high strikes is because some of the "old dogs" want more to be liked than good.

So in order to survive in the world in which I umpire, I call the high strike and get tough on the *****ing early and often. But I find that if it is called consistently for both sides, the complaining doesn't last past the third inning.

Other than that, kudos to Rich F. and T. Alan for telling it like it is. Perception is reality in the balls-and-strikes game, so the catcher must make the pitch look good. And the umpire who is courageous enough to call a lot of strikes is the one that moves up.

Oh yes, the high strike. That one hasn't been a problem in my area. It's as simple as "The NCAA wants it, and I'm calling it." Really, most of the D3 coaches (that's all there is in my area, for the most part) are OK with it.

The problem most lower-level umpires face when "moving up" is being consistent on the knee. Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee and tracking and timing are crucial to getting that pitch and being consistent with it.

I won't ball a cockshot that gets dropped and I even called a strike on a pitch caught palm up yesterday that seemed to cross up the catcher. So it's not a hard and fast rule, but a good catcher can certainly buy a few strikes for his F1.

[Tim C]

You have kinda sorta defined yourself as a low level, little guy umpire.

Let me explain:

1) There are two types of umpires: a) by the book and b) and 'real world' umpires.

2) I don't expect you to agree.

3) Many of us work a pretty high quality of ball every day . . . trust us that we know what we speak of . . .

4) Once you work a higher level of ball, get back to us, as your opinon 'may' change.

5) I am not going to make an effort to change your thinking,

All-in-all, I work my level, under my guidelines, and find that my success is just fine.

Regards,

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

So far, the only people I’ve found who believe hitting a “spot” is actually hitting the glove without it moving, and really believe it happens a high percentage of times, are very young and inexperienced.

More experienced people seem to consider “spots” as being approximately the size of a C’s mitt, or roughly a circle 15” in diameter.

I thought it was ridiculously huge until it was explained to me that a C’s mitt is about 15” across. If a ball hit dead center of the mitt, it would be perfect, but if the C had to move the mitt just 7-8” to get the ball, that’s still pretty darn good. So, 7-8” left/right/up/down would mean the pocket is pretty close to the outside edge of the original glove position, and that would make the circle roughly 15” across.

Accepting that as a “spot”, most of the more experienced people I’ve talked to seem to think a really accurate P like a Maddux, will still only be able to hit his “spot” at best maybe 70% of the time on a good day, which would make a pretty darn good college P maybe 50% accurate.

Is that what you consider “throwing darts”, are you finding something higher or lower as a good number, or is your meaning of “dart” something else entirely?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by buckweat

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

So far, the only people I’ve found who believe hitting a “spot” is actually hitting the glove without it moving, and really believe it happens a high percentage of times, are very young and inexperienced.

More experienced people seem to consider “spots” as being approximately the size of a C’s mitt, or roughly a circle 15” in diameter.

I thought it was ridiculously huge until it was explained to me that a C’s mitt is about 15” across. If a ball hit dead center of the mitt, it would be perfect, but if the C had to move the mitt just 7-8” to get the ball, that’s still pretty darn good. So, 7-8” left/right/up/down would mean the pocket is pretty close to the outside edge of the original glove position, and that would make the circle roughly 15” across.

Accepting that as a “spot”, most of the more experienced people I’ve talked to seem to think a really accurate P like a Maddux, will still only be able to hit his “spot” at best maybe 70% of the time on a good day, which would make a pretty darn good college P maybe 50% accurate.

Is that what you consider “throwing darts”, are you finding something higher or lower as a good number, or is your meaning of “dart” something else entirely?

It's not what I meant. What I meant, really, was that pitchers throw pitches that start near the knee and finish near the knee and getting that pitch right is crucial.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

OK, when you start working games that are NOT on the small diamond, come back and tell us how your "philosophy" is working for you..

My philosophy is really off the wall and unbelievable, hold onto your mask, I can't believe i'm even sharing this, well I realize i deserve the criticism of the elite of this forum, well geez I well here goes the philosphy of a lowly 7 and 8 yr old ump that can't even ump 80' ball. This is really hard here goes:
When i see a strike I call it phewww I did it. They say the first step in recovery is admitting your problem. Maybe if I stay on this formum for a couple years and learn from your most excellent advice I can get an assignment at the LL minors. Maybe if I go to the coaches and promise not to be contraversial, maybe then I could get to a bigger diamond.

I hope my confession helps younger umps that dream of doing 10 yr old travel. Please learn from my misguided and terrible philosophy.


I guess you prove that if you kiss enough behind you can work any level.
Lesson to all you young umps. Forget integrity, just be a brown noser.

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

BTW, if a curve ball doesn't finish and the catcher doesn't stick the pitch, I don't see a strike and neither does anyone else. Well, except you.

Tim specifically said it catches the knee. He saw it. plain and simple.
now it's just a matter of having the courage of your conviction.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by NIump50

My philosophy is really off the wall and unbelievable, hold onto your mask, I can't believe i'm even sharing this, well I realize i deserve the criticism of the elite of this forum, well geez I well here goes the philosphy of a lowly 7 and 8 yr old ump that can't even ump 80' ball. This is really hard here goes:
When i see a strike I call it phewww I did it. They say the first step in recovery is admitting your problem. Maybe if I stay on this formum for a couple years and learn from your most excellent advice I can get an assignment at the LL minors. Maybe if I go to the coaches and promise not to be contraversial, maybe then I could get to a bigger diamond.

I hope my confession helps younger umps that dream of doing 10 yr old travel. Please learn from my misguided and terrible philosophy.


I guess you prove that if you kiss enough behind you can work any level.
Lesson to all you young umps. Forget integrity, just be a brown noser.



Tim specifically said it catches the knee. He saw it. plain and simple.
now it's just a matter of having the courage of your conviction.

OK, you're not only stubborn, you've graduated all the way to stupid. Hello, "Ignore Poster."

[DG]

Originally Posted by buckweat

Rich,

I know this is a tad off subject, but when you say Higher level pitchers can throw darts at the knee, what are you really saying?

I’m not saying the higher level the P, that they aren’t more accurate!

I’ve been down this road with many an ump, player and coach from the LL(generic) to the ML, and even with a couple guy’s in the HOF, and the ability of P’s, even HOF P’s to actually hit spots has never been in doubt.

But what’s very much open to conjecture is, what a “spot” is, and what percentage of the time it can actually be hit.

The "spot" is what gets the batter out. If a higher level pitcher throws a fastball 3 inches outside on an 0-2 count it's because he meant to, not because he missed, so call it a ball. If he then throws one on the edge of the black outside, it's because he meant to, knowing that you will not call it 3 inches outside, so call it a strike.

The spot is a welled placed pitch, under a given situation.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

This isn't slow pitch softball. There isn't one high quality umpire I know that will call a hard breaking curve a strike if it's caught just off of the dirt. Not one! I don't care where it crosses, I'm not calling that crap a strike.



Tim.

so if a pitcher has the ability to throw such a pitch and spot it in the perfect position why would you call it crap? I call it talent and a damn good pitch.
Think through your reasoning
a pitch hits the strike zone and you don't call it.
Under normal circumstances I see only 2 possible reasons.
1. You're a lemming. If no one else is going to call a strike a strike neither am I. I'm following the crowd.
or
2. You're a coward. I want to appease the crowd and coaches. The ball is picked at the ankles and the path of least resistance is a called ball, despite the fact that i saw it catch the knee over the plate. I'm going to penalize the pitcher because I don't want to take the heat.

If there is another reason for calling it a ball please enlighten me.