Strike zone

[wsttxump]

This is why the pitch is a ball in a college level game.

1) NEITHER team or coach will expect that pitch called a strike. In fact anything caught more than a ball below the knee you will hear sh** about.

2) If you are going to call this pitch expect (2) things.
A) Ejections
B) You are not coming back to that park and/or conference.

Higher level games are "perception", Like it or nor that is the way it is. This is the "accepted" way to call the game. Like the "neighborhood" call or the swipe tag is the "accepted" way to call the game.

In the game of baseball there are numerous unwritten rules.
1) Large lead, no stealing or bunts.
2) Pitcher will protect batters and fielders.
3) No showing anyone up.
etc.
etc.

The other thing to think about is your partner you are working with. If you are calling that pitch a strike (the one and only time you are at that park) be prepared for your partner to call the assignor and say "no way am I working with him again" because the job you are doing reflects on you and your partner and you will bring him into this circus.

The rule book is black and white but you have to understand how the game is played and why it is played that way. There are plenty of things that will happen if you are looking for a sh**storm. Don't cause one by picking to call pitches that are down at ground level.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by gsf23

Well, I guess high school kids are the only ones able to throw those types of curveballs because I have never, ever seen an umpire in college, minors or the pros call a pitch in the dirt a strike no matter how much it broke.

I guess then that you call the opposite pitch a ball? That’s curve that hits the catcher’s mitt when he is set up right in the middle of the zone. I mean, if he can break it off enough to be above the knees and in the dirt when it reaches the catcher, then if it’s right in the middle of the zone or maybe a little of the top half of the zone when caught, it was probably high when it entered the zone. Or is that one of those strikes you try to “steal”.

What's all the fuss with GD stance and locking in good head position and all that crap. Heck, I can have all the movement I want, I just have to see the position of the catchers mitt. That's pretty easy. I don't need to see the pitch cross the plate. Apparently I'm only there to judge mitt location and style.
I'll give you a 5 for mitt location but only a 3 for style. BALL 1
Mitt location good give you a 7 but oh you missed the ball and it hit me 1 for style Ball 2
Great breaking pitch ahh sorry palms up Ball 3
You expected that 2 seamer on the inside not on the outside corner didn't you? shame shame Ball 4

[David B]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I was always taught- See a strike call a strike-and whenever you can, steal a strike.

Just got around to reading this thread and that is the most unrealistic post I've seen in a while.

Steal a strike? If you're calling balls in the dirt you're not only stealing them, you're giving them away.

Comments from most of my games - "come on **** (F2's name), you catch that ball and its a strike. (Close pitches that F2 misses or drops)

Sometimes coaches know the reality of baseball better than umpires.

Thanks
David

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by wsttxump

This is why the pitch is a ball in a college level game.

1) NEITHER team or coach will expect that pitch called a strike. In fact anything caught more than a ball below the knee you will hear sh** about.

2) If you are going to call this pitch expect (2) things.
A) Ejections
B) You are not coming back to that park and/or conference.

Higher level games are "perception", Like it or nor that is the way it is. This is the "accepted" way to call the game. Like the "neighborhood" call or the swipe tag is the "accepted" way to call the game.

In the game of baseball there are numerous unwritten rules.
1) Large lead, no stealing or bunts.
2) Pitcher will protect batters and fielders.
3) No showing anyone up.
etc.
etc.

The other thing to think about is your partner you are working with. If you are calling that pitch a strike (the one and only time you are at that park) be prepared for your partner to call the assignor and say "no way am I working with him again" because the job you are doing reflects on you and your partner and you will bring him into this circus.

The rule book is black and white but you have to understand how the game is played and why it is played that way. There are plenty of things that will happen if you are looking for a sh**storm. Don't cause one by picking to call pitches that are down at ground level.

I've watched my sons play high level ball for years, I've seen many a ump call fastball strikes 2-4" below the knees. Is that an unwritten part of the strike zone?
A fastball comes in 3" below the knees it's called a strike and if he's consistent with that call very little is said. Now a curve ball comes in at the knees and if you call it a strike you're an idiot and no coach will ever have you back.
Where's the integrity?

[wsttxump]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I've watched my sons play high level ball for years, I've seen many a ump call fastball strikes 2-4" below the knees. Is that an unwritten part of the strike zone?
A fastball comes in 3" below the knees it's called a strike and if he's consistent with that call very little is said. Now a curve ball comes in at the knees and if you call it a strike you're an idiot and no coach will ever have you back.
Where's the integrity?

You are amazing. 2" below the knees huh. The ball is 2-1/4" wide so that is a callable pitch. 4" below the knees is a "BALL". Like I said it's perception.

I never called you an "idiot". I never questioned your "integrity". I don't know you.

I don't give a damn if you call the "wormburner" pitch a strike or not because I don't work with you. If you want to call it then call it. Hope it works out for ya.

I get assignments because I am consistent and call the game the way it is meant to be played the one thing I can say is that the college assignments I get (D-1, 2, 3 and JUCO) is because of my integrity, consistency, mechanics and game management.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by LMan

"True to the strike zone?"



"Well, Smitty, how was your game today?"
"Not so good, Wally, I feel like I betrayed the strike zone."

Now that's funny

[Justme]

Originally Posted by NIump50

................... It has nothing to do...... never mind, if I have to explain the point of the story it's obvious the skull is a bit too thick.

If you grow up only hearing what sex with a girl is like from a bunch of gay guys then you might not ever have a desire to try it. You may even make judgements and accusations upon those who are enjoying such activities, never realizing how wrong you really are.

Now I'm a thick headed gay man? You were doing better when grandma was cutting 4" off the pot roast.

It's obvious from your post that you do very low level "baby ball". Nothing at all wrong with that I enjoy doing those youth games sometimes too, but the strike zone is different. The zone I call for 10 year olds is not the same as for players in their 20's+.

Bottom line is simple....if you want to call strikes that you observe caught the lower limit of the "true strike zone" and end up in the dirt then do it. But I can assure you that any assignor looking at you for higher level games will not be thrilled. You need to learn that IF you want to advance up in the umpire ranks you will call the game they way it is expected.....

So my answer to your question "Why call the pitches in the dirt balls?" Because that's the accepted way of doing it, it's what every one expects & wants, and it's what you'll be evaluated on. Is it the right things to do? Based on this you bet.....

Finally, I have tried to "be true to the strike zone", as you call it, and had the worst game of my life..... Both sides hated my zone, the fans hated my zone, the guy from my association observing me hated my zone, my assignor hated my zone, Even my dog bit me for calling those pitches caught in the dirt strikes.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by wsttxump

You are amazing. 2" below the knees huh. The ball is 2-1/4" wide so that is a callable pitch. 4" below the knees is a "BALL". Like I said it's perception.

If the top of the ball is at the bottom of the zone it's considered in the zone, I know that and you know that. So if I say the pitch was 2-4" below it stands to reason I meant the top of the ball was 2-4" below.
If you want to find fault find it in reality, don't be making so many assumptions.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Justme

Now I'm a thick headed gay man? You were doing better when grandma was cutting 4" off the pot roast..

If you thought I was calling you gay I'm sorry, not my intention.
Just another way to illustrate the point I thought you missed the first time.

Originally Posted by Justme

So my answer to your question "Why call the pitches in the dirt balls?" Because that's the accepted way of doing it, it's what every one expects & wants, and it's what you'll be evaluated on. Is it the right things to do? Based on this you bet.....

Finally, I have tried to "be true to the strike zone", as you call it, and had the worst game of my life..... Both sides hated my zone, the fans hated my zone, the guy from my association observing me hated my zone, my assignor hated my zone, Even my dog bit me for calling those pitches caught in the dirt strikes.

BINGO!!

We sometimes call pitches we clearly see in the strike zone balls because we want to appease coaches and spectators. Assignors want to appease coaches and ADs. So if we appease the coach we appease the assignor.
Many times it has nothing to do with the quality of pitch and everything to do with what the coach expects. Conflict avoidance while stepping up the ladder of success. It can't get much better than that.

I think this is a good honest answer to why.
Finally someone had the balls to call it the way it is. No pun intended.

Nothing wrong, IMO, with an appeasement philosophy, however it can become a slippery slope.
But I think a mixture of tough talk amongst ourselves and on the field appeasement may keep us on the upper half of the slope.

Originally Posted by Justme

The zone I call for 10 year olds is not the same as for players in their 20's+. .

for real it's different? you never know what you'll learn here.

I think the appeasement philosophy may play a part in this.
10 yr old coaches and players don't bite quite as hard as the big boys, therefore less need for appeasement.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, first off....all that talk about pot roast made me hungry!

Secondly, NIump50:

I think everyone understood your point in telling the Grandma's Pot Roast story. We don't have "thick skulls."

Third:

If the top of the baseball is 2-4 inches below the knees, it's a BALL!!! If umpires were calling that pitch a strike, then they have f***** up strike zones!

Fourth:

Please spare us the analogies about learning of sex with girls from homosexuals.

Fifth:

Quit trying to convince us to call ugly pitches that hit the dirt between the plate and the catcher STRIKES!!!

I remember back in the 80's calling a pitch like that a strike in a big Varsity game with two of the top teams playing. It was a dandy breaking ball that hit the bottom of the zone and just missed landing on home plate. I was nearly laughed off the field, and took a bunch of sarcastic remarks for doing it. I never did it again.

How do you deal with all the crap you must take calling these pitches strikes?

[wsttxump]

Originally Posted by NIump50

If the top of the ball is at the bottom of the zone it's considered in the zone, I know that and you know that. So if I say the pitch was 2-4" below it stands to reason I meant the top of the ball was 2-4" below.
If you want to find fault find it in reality, don't be making so many assumptions.

The only assumption I made was that you might be a umpire. After reading your post, I have come to the conclusion you may be a coach. You read part of something and turn it completely around to fit your needs, like a coach when he argues a rule.

We will call our strike zones, you call yours.

[buckweat]

Originally Posted by wsttxump

We will call our strike zones, you call yours.

Wsttxump,

You’re the only one who’s credentials have been posted as far as the highest level of ball you call, but perhaps you have an insight to what no one else seems able to answer what I asked way back in post #68.

…if anyone’s ever had the dubious pleasure of being “graded” by QuesTec”, I’d sure like to know exactly what the purpose of the thing is, and what exactly it is that you see when you throw the DVD in the player.

I’d also be curious to know how it would “score” one of those pitches that seems to be bringing out such angst. I.e., a pitch that crosses the zone at the bottom and front of the plate, but hits the dirt in front of the C.

Its not that I don’t respect what anyone saying, because that just isn’t the case. Any opinion I have is pure conjecture, so I have no choice but to bow to those who actually are making the calls. But, I can’t help but wonder why MLB was thinking and what they’re looking for with this “training” program.

I’ve read and heard a lot of the rhetoric both pro and con about it, but press releases, sound bites, and video clips aren’t really telling anyone what’s going on. What are the main goal(s) for doing it?

I can certainly see why MLB would want to try to bring the highest consistency to calling pitches. But, with all the “hits” baseball has taken with its integrity lately, I can also see where that might be a very big motivator too, and I can also see that the way integrity is viewed by the owners might have several facets.

The bottom line is, since the “standards” for umps calling pro games under ML auspices are obviously are lot more stringent than for college, let alone any level below that, what does it say for those lower level umps if what the top ones are doing is in question?

I’m not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, but normally businesses don’t train people unless they feel they could somehow be doing a “better” job. I’m trying to find out what MLB thinks could be done “better”.

There has to be some reason MLB is spending untold millions of dollars on the specific task of calling pitches.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If the top of the baseball is 2-4 inches below the knees, it's a BALL!!! If umpires were calling that pitch a strike, then they have f***** up strike zones!

I agree, but you have to agree that some umpires have low strike zones with the fastball and if they're consistent very little is said.
Eric Gregg, GRHS, was not only respected but known for his wide strike zone.
So I reiterate my point that pitches consistently out of the strike zone can be called strikes with little repercussion, while another pitch admittedly in the strike zone can never even be considered a strike.
Doesn't it seem a bit odd?

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Quit trying to convince us to call ugly pitches that hit the dirt between the plate and the catcher STRIKES!!!

Beauty (and ugliness) is in the eyes of the beholder.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone to call it a strike. I'm simply defending my opinion against those who continue to impune me personally because I hold a contrarian opinion.
If my opinion was contrary to the rule book I would totally understand the outrage.
I realize my stance on this flies in the face of common practice, but I am within the rules.

I choose not to penalize a pitcher for a great pitch because I want to appease the coach.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I remember back in the 80's calling a pitch like that a strike in a big Varsity game with two of the top teams playing. It was a dandy breaking ball that hit the bottom of the zone and just missed landing on home plate. I was nearly laughed off the field, and took a bunch of sarcastic remarks for doing it. I never did it again.

How do you deal with all the crap you must take calling these pitches strikes

How often do you think this happens?
How many times do you see a curve hit the strike zone and break to or near the dirt?
This is close to being a theoritical question.
The question that may have more practical value is what to call on the catchers wave?
Or a missed curve ball glacing off the catchers glove at the knees.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by wsttxump

The only assumption I made was that you might be a umpire. After reading your post, I have come to the conclusion you may be a coach. You read part of something and turn it completely around to fit your needs, like a coach when he argues a rule.

We will call our strike zones, you call yours.

At least I read part of it.
If you actually read the thread you'll find I merely offered my opinion on this pitch and then was told in no uncertain terms that a pitch in the strike zone that drops to the ground cannot be called a strike. Period. Then I was told that I could not be a quality umpire if I did.
I'd say that's your side telling me how to call balls and strikes, not vice versa.
The rest of the thread I've been defending my opinion.

So again I say to you. Get your facts right and Stop making assumptions.

After reading your posts, I have come to the conclusion that you're probably an assistant coach.
Just a clueless mouthpiece thrown out at the end of an argument as a sacrificial lamb to protect me the coach.

Have a nice walk to the parking lot!

[SAump]

It appears Questec has the same problem I do.

"A core weakness of the system is that it consistently misses certain types of pitches, mostly sweeping pitches (sliders and curves), as well as late, hard, 'boring' pitches such as the cut fastball. These pitches can land all the way into the opposite batter's box, but because they caught a tiny slice of the front corner of the plate, the computer calls them strikes. No umpire who values his safety is going to call a pitch that lands in the opposite batter's box a strike. "

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=3326