balk question

[ygyo]

The pitcher is in contact with the pitching plate. He is looking in for his sign and then turns his shoulders to look at R1. If he does not come to his set position after making that shoulder move is it a balk in OBR? Or can he, after looking at R1, turn and look at the catcher again with no balk being called? Thanks.

[BigUmp56]

As long as the shoulder turn was slow and deliberate, and he came set before he delivered the ball, it's not a balk. If the shoulder turn was real quick it would be considered an illegal feint to first and a balk would be called.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Plus he can turn his shoulders over and over again up until he comes set, not just the one time.

[blueump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

As long as the shoulder turn was slow and deliberate, and he came set before he delivered the ball, it's not a balk. If the shoulder turn was real quick it would be considered an illegal feint to first and a balk would be called.


Tim.

That may be the case in OBR (??), but not FED. In FED rules this year, it is legal. Speed has nothing to do with it. He can turn his shoulders at any speed, in any manner, as long as he has not yet come to the set position. Simply turning the shoulders is not a feint.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I don't know.....I was always taught that a jerky shoulder turn/head snap kind of move should be balked. How is that any different from a feint from on the rubber? It is not the speed of the turn that is in question, it is the intent of the pitcher, which is fairly easily ascertained with judgment. If by his jerking the shoulder, he causes the runner to dive back into the base, I would say that is the same as faking a throw to 1st from the rubber.

I does not need to be slow and deliberate. It just can't be deceptive, as this is what the balk rule is intended to stop.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, I see that I'm wrong again. In FED, it is legal to do what would be a balk in any other code. Apparently some genius in the rules committee decided that it's okay to drive runners back to the base with a jerky shoulder turn. It is only legal in FED, and thank God I don't do HS anymore!

[nickrego]

The pitching hand, when the shoulder is turned, can not break from the pitcher's side or back, or it is a feint / Balk.

So basically, the shoulder turn can not change the position of the ball or pitching hand.

If the pitcher SNAPS the shoulder in a way that makes the umpire think the pitcher was trying to deceive the runner, that's a Balk. If the pitcher does any thing that makes the umpire think the pitcher is trying to illegally deceive the runner, that's a balk. Balks are judgment calls.

Personally, I allow quite a bit of leeway on the 'snap' aspect of it, as long as the hand stays still, and the body does not lean toward the base.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Steve,

They can turn and look as long as their hands haven't come to together. They can also turn and look as their hands are coming together. Their shoulders have to be back to parallel right before their hands come together. FED used to be the exception to this rule. They just okay-ed it last year as I recall.

Yeah, I read it in the BRD # 360, at exactly the same time JM was messaging me with the news of my wrongness.

It used to be that the pitcher could not even turn his shoulders while on the rubber. They finally got that right, and then screwed the rule up even more with the "no turning shoulders after the hands come together during the stretch" part, which is still different from OBR and NCAA.

FED rules are the exception in that they allow quick, jerky movements of the shoulder in order to drive back runners. OBR and NCAA still call this a balk.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yeah, I read it in the BRD # 360, at exactly the same time JM was messaging me with the news of my wrongness.

It used to be that the pitcher could not even turn his shoulders while on the rubber. They finally got that right, and then screwed the rule up even more with the "no turning shoulders after the hands come together during the stretch" part, which is still different from OBR and NCAA.

FED rules are the exception in that they allow quick, jerky movements of the shoulder in order to drive back runners. OBR and NCAA still call this a balk.

Steve:

A dear friend who is a FED clinician reminds me often that one must always to look to the intent of FED rules.

The change in the shoulder turn in FED was to simplify when to allow A SHOULDER TURN and when not to. It was not intended to have any effect on calling a balk for a feint to first.

A feint to first while on the rubber is still a balk...before or after coming set. So, was it a shoulder turn.....or a feint? Call the feint, ignore the shoulder turn.