Do you toss this coach?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Now as I reread Bainer's original post, I see that he did warn the assistant not to permit the players to go into the stands, and neither that coach nor his players heeded that warning. He was well within his rights, in fact absolutely should have run that second coach the moment that any players went back to the stands after being warned.

[UmpJM]

Steve,

...As we make the swap, I warn him that his players better stay out of the stands...

I see what you mean.

I still think it would have been better umpiring to do as I suggested in my reply to Bainer. What do you think?

If the team/coach absolutely refuses to comply with the umpires' instructions, I certainly agree that the umpire has the authority to declare a forfeit.

In my opinion, it is better umpiring not to let it get to that point. It seems to me that there was one a$$hole at this game. Bainer properly, (maybe a little later than he could/should have) ejected him. I would be more favorably impressed with an umpire that simply made him leave (if he could) than one who let it get to a forfeit situation.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

I agree, and I think Bainer would agree also. I did not advocate forfeiting the game. I don't like that idea at all. It would be a last resort type of thing.

[BlueLawyer]

If I read the post right:

(1) EJ, then (2) warning not to go into the stands. The purpose of an ejection is punishment to an offender for violation of a the rules/decorum of the game. OBR 4.15: (a game may be forfeited to the other team when) (e) After warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game.

The violation is willful and persistent. Shut the game down. Find the scorebook and sign it- 9-0 and let the EJd coach explain to the league president how unfairly he was treated.

Strikes and outs!

[LMan]

I would suggest stopping the game and finding the TD, and informing him that the game will not resume until the ejected coach has departed sight-and-sound range of the field. Then let the TD earn his pay. The ejected coach can decide if his continued presence is worth a forfeit and the ire of the parents around him who came to see their children play ball, not watch an idiot coach throw an extended hissy.

The AC consulting with the ejected coach, warning then eject. If thats all the adults they have on the bench, then your issue has solved itself.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Bainer,



IMO, as soon as you knew what was going on with the jerk manager you properly ejected you should have:

1. halted the game.

2. announced that it would not continue until the ejected manager had left the premises.

3. if he had not left the premises within whatever you considered a reasonable amount of time, announced that the game was suspended and leave it to the league to decide how they want to deal with it.

I actually believe that your second ejection was improper. The second ejection was a result of your failure to enforce the first ejection.

I also believe that you do not have the authority to declare a forfeit in the situation you described, as some have suggested. I applaud your response in saying you would not abuse your legitimate authority in issuing additional ejections to the point that you would have the authority to declare a forfeit.

Now, if the ejected manager refuses to leave and you do suspend the game, if I'm on the league BOD, I might be inclined to declare the game a forfeit. I would certainly be inclined to suspend the offending manager for (at least) the remainder of the season.

But hey, I'm just a coach (and a BOD member), so I could be wrong.

JM

You're right and wrong. While the umpire should've gotten rid of the first guy, it doesn't excuse the second guy and he needed to go, too.

[ChapJim]

I want to complain about the overwhelming display of uncharacteristic civility in this string. You had a chance to turn this thread into something ugly and you blew it! We're not used to seeing people acknowledge the point of view of others.

Keep this up and McGriff's has nothing to worry about.

[UmpJM]

Rich,

I don't disagree. Ultimately, the 2nd coach earned his ejection as well.

I was just trying to make the point that if the first ejection had been properly enforced, the second one wouldn't have had to happen.

JM

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ChapJim

I want to complain about the overwhelming display of uncharacteristic civility in this string. You had a chance to turn this thread into something ugly and you blew it! We're not used to seeing people acknowledge the point of view of others.

Keep this up and McGriff's has nothing to worry about.

Shut up, scab

http://www.nutsacdance.org/

[TussAgee11]

I'm pretty much with the JM on this one.

Eject the manager. Nip it in the bud. Don't let it get to the point it did.

But things happen, so....

Call the assistant coach over. Tell him... "I know exactly what is going on, and if it happens again, you'll be ejected as well. If the manager tries anything more, the game is being halted and the TD is going to remove him from the premises."

If it happens, bye bye to assistant coach (if he was an acting agent, I'm not tossing the coach if the manager is just yelling from the parking lot or whatever). But if players are running out there, ha.

Then we have two coaches in the parking lot and we play again. Not forfeiting until THEY are the only people doing harm. And even then, I'm more inclined to just hand it to the TD. Forfiets should be aboided at all cost because a) I look bad because I couldn't control the game (even if I did everything right) and b) Especially in youth baseball, I'm not going to have a pissing contest between a coach to see who can top who.

[bossman72]

JM-

Normally in amateur games, when someone is ejected, the ejected offender has to get out of "sight and sound." That's the policy our association enforces here locally and nobody has a problem with it. So an umpire can certainly forfeit the game if a coach is tring to circumvent his ejection by relaying messages to coaches.

[DG]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

DG,

I believe you suggested the proper remedy in this situation is for the umpire to declare a forfeit.

I do not believe the rules grant the umpire this authority. I believe my suggestions to Bainer are proper and within the authority granted the umpire by the rules.

I am open to being convinced otherwise.

What's your basis? (Cites, please.)

JM

As I said earlier, "My opinion of ejecting a coach who talked to an ejected manager? It wouldn't happen." It wouldn't happen because I am not going to allow an ejected manager any contact with the team. A warning will be issued on first offense. The warning will include the consequence if this continues, and then when it does, game over. The game will not continue after a manager ejection, until I can no longer see or hear him. And as I mentioned earlier, the only game I have ever forfeited was because a manager would not leave the premises. He made a nuisance of himself, from 100 feet away from the field and would not leave. The league adminstration did not take too kindly of his actions, he never coached another game there.

[tiger49]

Originally Posted by Bainer

Situation TODAY.
Bear with me, as it is the SECOND ejection that I'm asking about.

Young, bitter ex-pro turned youth travel coach (you know the type) will NOT SHUT UP- all game with the jabs and slurs and just out-of-ear-shot insults.
Opposing team (batting at the time) makes great play to break up a double play. It was hard, but totally clean.

Coach gets into it with third base coach- this gets quelled quickly- next batter, first pitch- plunk.
Rather than run anyone (no one was hurt, just pissed off), we gave both teams bench warnings, and stern words.

Start of the next inning- foul, foul, foul- ask coach for more balls, he snipes back "you need to tell me BEFORE the inning starts"- I explain that we had baseballs when the inning started, get more now.
He flips a few infield balls towards the plate and says "I'm not here to serve you", then turns to his assistant and refers to me in terms I will not repeat.

So after he gets ejected, the game goes along without incident.
But.... (There's always a but, isn't there?)
His team comes back to make a game of it, and in the bottom of the last, are threatening down by three, no outs runnner on first (catcher).

Partner and I both notice the pitcher from the first game leaving the bench and going into the crowd...then returning to talk to the assistant...then leaving again, etc. (we all know what's going on at this point)

Assistant asks for time, and brings in pinch runner. As we make the swap, I warn him that his players better stay out of the stands- he's the coach now.
Team loads bases, then sacs a guy in.

Chaos ensues on team's bench, ten or twelve guys yell for time, players are pouring into the crowd, and the ejected coach has now moved to the edge of the fencing and is shouting orders to everyone- who to sub in, what to do, etc.

Assistant actually walks over to the fence, discusses lineup card with ejected coach, affirms decisions, and continues strategizing. We both notice this and head toward the bench- assistant comes out to make the changes, and we tell him that he can now join his head coach in the stands.

Does anyone have a problem with shipping the second coach?
Rule 4.07
When a manager, player, coach or trainer is ejected from a game, he shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. He shall remain in the club house or change to street clothes and either leave the park or take a seat in the grandstand well removed from the vicinity of his team's bench or bullpen.

I realize that it LOOKED bad, but they tried to get away with one and got caught.


Bainer.

All this from a PBLO game yikes...Some of the old timers in the TO area must be waiting for Noel Crighton to make a return.

[waltjp]

In this situation the umps should have cut it off as soon as they became aware of what was happening. I had a similar situation in a Babe Ruth game a couple of years ago.

I was the BU. The PU tosses a manager for questioning his strike zone. (The PU's zone was awful, but that's a whole other story.) Anyway, about an inning after the manager is tossed I see him standing next to his dugout and talking to the team and other ***'t coaches.

I make the PU aware of the situation and tell him that I'll handle it, figuring that if the PU went over it would only exasperate the problem. I informed the manager that he was removed from the game and was not allowed to communicate with his team. With this he starts screaming at me, "What are you going to do, call the police?!"

Now this is not my fight to begin with and I'm certainly not going to get into an arguement with a manager who has already been removed from the game, so I repied in a voice loud enough for some of the parents standing nearby to hear, "Coach, the only call I'm about to make is a forfeit in favor of the other team. It's up to you."

With that I turned and walked away. When I looked back he was gone.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally Posted by waltjp

In this situation the umps should have cut it off as soon as they became aware of what was happening. I had a similar situation in a Babe Ruth game a couple of years ago.

...

Now this is not my fight to begin with and I'm certainly not going to get into an arguement with a manager who has already been removed from the game, so I repied in a voice loud enough for some of the parents standing nearby to hear, "Coach, the only call I'm about to make is a forfeit in favor of the other team. It's up to you."

With that I turned and walked away. When I looked back he was gone.

And that is exactly how it should have been.

Eject the first manager. Period. He absolutely knows (and you can surely tell him) that he is required to be out of sight out of sound (ABSOLUTELY NO MORE INVOLVEMENT WITH HIS TEAM.)

Player leaving the dug out... eject him too. Especially if you think he is cavorting with the already ejected coach... or back behind the fence checking your strike zone. His place is in the dugout - not in the stands. whether he is talking to his Momma or his father the coach. In the dugout - ONLY.

The second "ASSistant" coach is discussing with the already ejected coach - EJECT HIM TOO! This is a no brainer.

These are rules that need to be enforced - even in 12 and under games.

Your job is not to try to protect the coaches or keep a violating team in the game. These are the rules, Coach. You violate them and you are ejected. You continue to violate and your team will forfeit. This is not a rule you should bend in the favor of the violating coach.