Why not toss more offenders?

[buckweat]

Why are umps in general so reluctant to run a coach or player? As a fan, I'm sick and tired of the same coaches or players doing things that are clearly within the realm of being runable offenses, but umps, in general, just seem to continue to warn them.

I love it when an ump takes charge right up front and lets everyone know he won't take a lot of garbage. I like it even better when an ump will stop a coach before he even gets out of the dugout and avoids the situation altogether.

I go to a game to watch players play baseball not to see some insecure adult showing his ignorance and holding up the game. I also don't especially like to hear F-bombs" being dropped all over the place at a HS or below game.

[senior]

I believe it depends on the level of experience of the Umpire. Newbies are reluctant, free-riders don't want to cause anyone to question them and prolong the game, and the wussies are afraid of a potential challenge.

Ironically, the game I just finished had two ejections, both by me. Tight game, unbeaten (so far) team down by two, and opponent has runner on second with two outs. Single to center, #8 has excellent arm, I'm in "C", and anticipate a throw home, but I'm watching runner to be sure of a touch at third, when lo and behold the third baseman decides to assume a fielding position ON THE BAG, for a non-existant throw. The runner goes around him the long way, avoiding contact, but I have OBSTRUCTION, and on the ensuing play at the plate - tagged out - naturally nobody is watching my arm signal or listening to anything I'm yelling, until the defense starts clearing the field, when I make my surprise announcement, and unhappiness prevails.

The third baseman's father, (a coach in the dugout) is the first to go when he comes up with some foul language while berating me. An inning passes, things seem to be settling down, and wait a minute - what's this? One of the Parents (not a coach but a spectator) has joined the huddle (prayer meeting) the losing team is having, and I hear "O.K. boys, tighten up, because it's 11 against 9).
Needless to say, he was the second one to go.

Newbies would not make the call because they would miss the obstruction, and be following the ball instead.
Free-riders would zip it because it would prolong the game.
Wusses would be afraid of the inevitable flack which they wouldn't want to deal with. However, this old duffer called it because I saw it, and couldn't live with myself if I let it slide. I would rather listen to the flack than to lay down, and not make the call.

If the two guys I tossed ever get serious about their rules knowledge, we'll get them some volunteer applications and perhaps get two new Umpires out of this situation.



Senior

[greymule]

You were right in tossing them, and I agree that the woods are full of no-nothing loudmouths. I would like to add, though, that I've also seen the other extreme, where umps toss people too quickly. I think that comes from insecurity, too: "Be tough, show them I'm the boss, don't let anyone challenge me." I've seen umps unnecessarily aggravate a situation, too.

I can think of one example from an ASA FP tournament game where I was PU: First inning, R1 on 1B tries to steal 2B. Throw from catcher sails and draws F6 two steps across 2B and right into the path of R1. The ball goes off F6's glove into the outfield just before R1 collides with F6, obviously unintentionally and clearly not a violation, even under Fed's dainty rules. In addition, R1 even slowed up and tried to avoid contact. BU, whom I had never worked with, calls runner out for colliding. This was indeed a terrible call, and I intended to confer with the BU in hopes of reversing it. The offensive coach (admittedly a known hothead) naturally comes out to question the call. But BU immediately tells the coach, "Get back in the dugout, sir. That's illegal and we're concerned about safety." As coach turns around to walk back, he says--not screams, just says--"That's the worst call I ever saw."

Bang! "You're out of here, sir." Now I can't confer with BU about the play, and we have a poisoned game. Six more innings of grief from fans and general hostility in the park, all totally unnecessary. Later in the game, BU even called a player on the other team out on virtually the same play. (He also thought that as soon as the infield fly was called, runners could tag up and advance legally--they didn't have to wait for the ball to be caught!)

The best umps I've seen let players and coaches have a lot of say, even well after the play, as long as the complaining is about the play and not personally insulting. But they ignore, to a point, "Get in the game," "Open your eyes," "You're killing us," "It's 11 against 9," and so on. But it depends on who says it and where and how loud and how vehemently and how persisently and a lot of other factors.

It would take a lot for me to toss someone in Fed. For an ejection here in NJ, you have to fill out more paperwork than would a police officer who shoots a suspect.

[buckweat]

Your actions are exactly what's needed! I just don't get why more umps don't do it. The "newbies" ought to be made to understand that by not taking action, they encourage that behavior, and the whussies out to go find something else to do! those guys make it much tougher on the guys who really try to do their jobs.

I guess what really grinds on me is the utter ignorance of the rules most coaches display! If I could get the baseball Gods to institute any rule, it would be that if at the meeting at home plate when the linep cards are exchanged, both coaches must display their rule book. If they can't do that, they will not be allowed to talk to Blue that game.

I can deal with the LL coach who doesn't know the rules and even the spectators who don't, but when a coach is getting paid to do that, s/he darn sure ought to be made to go to umpire school and pass the local umpire's certification test!

I recently watched a HS JV coach ask an ump if he saw the play on which he was questioning a judgement call. When the ump asked the coach if he saw the play, the coach said no. to me, running that coach should have only been the beginning of the punishment. He should have been fired on the spot too!

Luckily for him, the ump just told him to go sit down in the dugout because he was laughing so hard at this idiot's stupidity!

[jicecone]

Wait a minute guys. TIME OUT. Were sitting here talking about coaches and spectators making stupid mistakes, not knowing the rules, yelling at us, being critical of our officiating and sometimes down right rude. Throwing people out of games and classifying other officials.

Hold up a minute. What mechanic book or rule book gives us the right to be god out there? I take pride in the fact that I very seldom throw anyone out of a game. I officiate over 150 hockey games and 125 basball games each year. If I throw out ten people, Ive thrown out a lot. Game mangement gentlemen.

You guys are doing your share of name calling also. What has made you better than everyone else? Because you study the rules more? You should, that is what your being paid for.

We are not policemen, fathers , mothers or gods out there. We are there to officate the game. NOT BE THE GAME. If you have to brag how many people you throw out of games than I have to question your ability to officiate.

Officiating is not just about knowing rules, it helps to know when to apply them.

"The "newbies" ought to be made to understand" and the "whussies" should find something else to do"? The "Freeriders would ZIP it"!

Gentlemen I appreciate your right to free speech, but what has made you so much better than the rest of us officials who just try to do a good job?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by buckweat

Why are umps in general so reluctant to run a coach or player? As a fan, I'm sick and tired of the same coaches or players doing things that are clearly within the realm of being runable offenses, but umps, in general, just seem to continue to warn them.

I love it when an ump takes charge right up front and lets everyone know he won't take a lot of garbage. I like it even better when an ump will stop a coach before he even gets out of the dugout and avoids the situation altogether.

I go to a game to watch players play baseball not to see some insecure adult showing his ignorance and holding up the game. I also don't especially like to hear F-bombs" being dropped all over the place at a HS or below game.


The "F" Bomb is an automatic even in the PRO ranks.

It's the rest of the stuff that each umpire will differ on. Generally speaking if only myself and the player heard it - I will cut them some slack, but make certain that they know I heard it.

Also, a good official can do some preventative umpiring. When we see a player start to take his / her helmet off or look as if they might throw equipment we can hed it off at the pass It doesn't always work, but if a player is a good athlete and wants to stay in the game they will listen.

Just because you toss everyone doesn't mean you are taking charge Some umpires like the "power", so they will toss at the drop of a hat.

I'll agree associations should be more consistent in their approach to sportsmanship and some coaches and players should have been tossed so that the next umpiring crew doesn't run into the same problems or look like the bad guys.

Pete Booth

[JRutledge]

It is kind of hard to toss a coach if they do not do anything to get tossed. At least that is the case for me. I have only ran one coach in my entire career. I restricted one to the dugout and that is it. I have just not been in a situation to get rid of a coach. And when I have been in those few situations, I squashed the situation very quickly. Nothing happened after that.

Peace

[buckweat]

Jicecone has an excellent point about being there to officiate but not to be the focus of the game. However, the same can be said for the coaches and the fans.

Baseball games are long enough without allowing things absolutely forbidden in the rules to delay a game. If a coach doesn't agree with a rule interpretation, all he has to do is simply protest it. There's no need for putting on a show. Most coaches won't protest because they don't know the rules and don't want to show their ignorance.

Arguing judgement calls is a totally different thing. If a given ump wants to allow that to happen, then he has to determine how far to let it go before he thinks it affects the game. That's a judgement call too!

But the bottom line is laid out in Rule 9.02. There is some leeway given in there, but the words "shall" and "will" aren't subjective.

I don't want to see everyone who opens their mouth booted, but on the other hand, if a person breaks the rules, they are subject to the penalties.

Personally, I know very little about hockey, or even want to for that matter. But I do enjoy a baseball game and happen not to want to see a game taken over by non-players, umpires or otherwise!

No one questions whether or not umps try to do a good job, but not throwing people out who should be doesn't do anything for the game or for anyone's opinion of umpires in general.

[JRutledge]

There are no protests in NF games. Maybe in other levels, but none in HS level games, unless your state allows it.

Peace

[buckweat]

There are no protests in NF games. Maybe in other levels, but none in HS level games, unless your state allows it.

I'm not sure why you posted that.

Does it mean that umps have to be more tolerant because a coach has no recourse about a rule incorrectly applied? That sounds reasonable to me where a protest is not available, but how far is an upmp supposed to go?