The phantom out (Expected call)

[Striker991]

Once again I must revisit this issue, even though I am already aware of how the "big dogs" will respond. Last night in the Orioles at Seattle game, Carl Everett attempted the steal of 2nd base. It was obvious that the ball beat him there, by quite a bit. However, it was equally obvious that the tag wasn't even close and missed Everett by a mile. While I understand the safety issues involved and the need to avoid injury by not keeping the glove down to get nailed by cleats (sweep tag), I also feel that when the miss is so obvious (from every angle) that an out should not be awarded. The 2nd base umpire looked terribly foolish and you could see the look on his face when he made that call he was making "the expected call" that everyone knew was wrong. While he garnered no argument at the time (because everyone knew what had occurred and why the call was made), Carl Everett summed it up nicely in the postgame interview..."it is lazy man's baseball." To paraphrase, it is umpiring baseball without balls.

Okay dogs...time to defend purposely making the wrong call because it is "expected."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, I once had a very famous and well respected local Varsity coach come out on me, and with stank breath in my face let me know in no uncertain terms that "we're paying you good money to make that call!" So, that is just the way the good folks of baseball want it called. Ball there way before the runner, and any kind of tag put down there results in a big, fat out.

I learned the hard way on that call. My "safe, no tag!" call got me a big butt chewing, and I have taken much less grief by making the expected call ever since. Occasionally, a coach or player will briefly whine "he didn't tag me, Blue" but that is usually the extent of it.

I don't think it's lazy baseball, I just think that poor baserunning should not be rewarded because of some fancy hook-slide at the last second. If it's a bang-bang play, by all means get it right. But don't call a runner safe when the tag has been waiting on the runner.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, I once had a very famous and well respected local Varsity coach come out on me, and with stank breath in my face let me know in no uncertain terms that "we're paying you good money to make that call!" So, that is just the way the good folks of baseball want it called. Ball there way before the runner, and any kind of tag put down there results in a big, fat out.

I learned the hard way on that call. My "safe, no tag!" call got me a big butt chewing, and I have taken much less grief by making the expected call ever since. Occasionally, a coach or player will briefly whine "he didn't tag me, Blue" but that is usually the extent of it.

I don't think it's lazy baseball, I just think that poor baserunning should not be rewarded because of some fancy hook-slide at the last second. If it's a bang-bang play, by all means get it right. But don't call a runner safe when the tag has been waiting on the runner.

Wow! If you were my partner, I would chew YOUR ***!

As I moved up into the college ranks, I found a much higher appreciation for making the RIGHT call, even when it isn't popular!

A no tag is a no tag! There is no "expected call", and I agree that it is lazy man's baseball to call it any other way! Be a man and make the right call!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

Wow! If you were my partner, I would chew YOUR ***!

As I moved up into the college ranks, I found a much higher appreciation for making the RIGHT call, even when it isn't popular!

A no tag is a no tag! There is no "expected call", and I agree that it is lazy man's baseball to call it any other way! Be a man and make the right call!

First, if you were my partner, and chewed my senior, much more experienced a$$, I would proceed to kick yours, and we would see who's a man. In fact if any umpire deemed to "chew my a$$," they would find themselves laid out very quickly.

I ain't on my first rodeo. I have many years of good, solid experience, and I know how that call is made at the highest level of baseball, and that is how I call it too. When the ball beats the runner by a half-mile, the call that every coach I know of wants made is "out." That is the "accepted" call, as well as the "expected" call in the big leagues, so what makes it any different at lower levels? It is different on a fairly close play, or a banger, naturally. In these cases, reward the runner for his outstanding slide. But not when he's thrown out by 20 feet.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

Wow! If you were my partner, I would chew YOUR ***!

As I moved up into the college ranks, I found a much higher appreciation for making the RIGHT call, even when it isn't popular!

A no tag is a no tag! There is no "expected call", and I agree that it is lazy man's baseball to call it any other way! Be a man and make the right call!

A partner chewing my ***? That would be a first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

A partner chewing my ***? That would be a first.

And probably a last also.....

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

First, if you were my partner, and chewed my senior, much more experienced a$$, I would proceed to kick yours, and we would see who's a man. In fact if any umpire deemed to "chew my a$$," they would find themselves laid out very quickly.

I ain't on my first rodeo. I have many years of good, solid experience, and I know how that call is made at the highest level of baseball, and that is how I call it too. When the ball beats the runner by a half-mile, the call that every coach I know of wants made is "out." That is the "accepted" call, as well as the "expected" call in the big leagues, so what makes it any different at lower levels? It is different on a fairly close play, or a banger, naturally. In these cases, reward the runner for his outstanding slide. But not when he's thrown out by 20 feet.

God knows how you survived.

So, we call the game the coach wants called? So for the sake of what is "accepted", you risk "integrity"?

I am NOT going to reward a fielder for a sloppy tag! If the throw beat him by 20 feet, that is 20 feet the fielder has to put on a SPECTACULAR tag.

As to you being "senior", you have no idea IF you are "senior". You may be "senior citizen", complete with horrible eye site and not quite sure if there was a tag or not, but, I have well over 20 years umpiring. Even IF you have more than that, and I could care less at WHAT level, if you are making a pathetic out call on a tag that never happened just because that is what is "expected", and "what the coach wants", you WILL get an *** chewing from me (and much deserved). As to you "kicking" my ***? LOL Ok, live your dream.

Many coaches walk away "mad" about me making the RIGHT call, but when the "right" call goes THEIR way, and they know for certain that someday one will, they are thankful for my integrity.

Out of all the great umpires that have mentored me over the years, not ever has one of them ever suggested that I make a wrong call because that is what is "expected", or "what the coach wants". It has always been suggested to make the RIGHT call always, and for that effort, I have done very well and have the respect of partners AND coaches!

[LakeErieUmp]

A hook-slide is not "fancy", it's a way to deke a fielder and catch the outside of the bag while he's thinking you're going in straight. It's called BASERUNNING and it's why baseball is a great game.
By the way, in your league do you have "pitcher's mound's out for first" too"

[NIump50]

If the throw is well in front of the runner and the slide is feet first and the phantom tag is close, I'll give the out. Experienced fielders will be giving that quick up and down tag to avoid a cleat in the wrist.
A headfirst slide is different, for me a tag has to be made.

[RPatrino]

PDX, you could have made your point without infering that you would kick anyones butt. Seems to me that you were inciting or baiting. I sure hope you don't do that on the field....


Bob P.

[chuckfan1]

--If its a "sloppy" tag, then the play didnt play out as "expected". Then you might have a "safe, no tag!". If the throw is good, and the fielder drops the glove down, and brings it back up, what looks like an out, is an out. Similar to a ground ball, and F1 pulling off the bag a hair before the ball hits his mitt, when BR is out by several feet. Are you going to safe that?
--If you dont give the "expected" call, especially at higher levels, the coaches arnt used to seeing that. They see that called out every time, and if you safe it cause F6 missed the tag by an inch, you may be technically right, but for intents and purposes, its an out.
--When I first started, I didnt buy into the expected call either. But as Ive moved up, talked with higher level officials, seen how the game is called and played, thats just the way it is. Any deviation, will cause you problems.
--I posted this before, but Ill mention it again. I worked two HS games this season with a D1 umpire here in So Calif. He does all the big schools here, the Cal State Fullertons, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. He assigns for JC ball. Im trying to move up to the JC level. He works a few HS games a year with guys like myself to evaluate. So this is coming from someone who goes through this stuff.
I was on the bases. R1 stealing. Very smililar play to what we're discussing. F2 strong throw. F6 nice reception. Ball beats runner, F6 lays glove down, and I see a miss, albeit an inch or so. I safe it. Def coach comes out a few feet, and asks "miss the tag?". Meaning, it sure looked like an out to everyone else, what could have happenned to give a safe?
I say yep, missed the tag.
In discussing after the game, my partner asked what I had. I said I had a miss. He said, that at any level above "ankle-biters" that is an out. And if I want to make it to the next level and be successful, thats an out. He agreed that if any part of the play deviates (bad throw, poor reception, bobble) then go with that, but if all the elements are there, throw, reception, glove down then up, its an out. Yeah, were out there to see things others dont, and rule accordingly, but were ALSO out there to affirm what everyone sees.
He mentioned something interesting also. He said..."I dont know if you played ball when you were younger......." Whcih tells me in his observation of my performance Im not calling certain aspects to what is, yes, expected.
No one has to question integrity. This seems pretty easy. R1 tries to steal, ball clearly beats him, F6 lays down glove, and brings it back up a hair in front of a sliding runner trying to keep his hand intact. We want outs. The runner knows hes out, the fielder knows hes out, as well as the coaches. Geez, get the out. And at the upper levels, none of the aforementioned will say a peep. Because, thats the way its played.
Just my opinion....

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Every year this gets debated ad nauseum...anyone remember Carl and my squabble over the fence clearing homerun hitter that misses home plate?

I can only offer you this: the myth that the expected call is the only way you will move up has been proven wrong by none other than Dave Yeast. In NCAA baseball, he and his evaluators expect you to make the correct, albeit difficult call. The nonsense about coaches not making a peep when 'everyone in the park knows the call' makes me want to scream. I recall one coach come out to me and argue that steal at second. He says, "Blue - the ball was there five steps before the runner. You've got to make that call." I replied, "Coach, your second baseman needs to learn how to tag the runner. That wasn't a force play." He shook his head and glared at the second baseman. The shortstop (and team captain) barked at the second baseman to do his job and that I would do mine. I smiled and trotted back to my first base position. I never heard a peep and that second baseman learned that he needs to actually tag the runner.

If you start allowing phantom tags and close touches when turning a double play, you will suffer in the long run. Pretty soon, the shortstop or second baseman is going to start dragging his tag foot four feet from the base and then you really will have a ****storm on your hands. Call it the way it is supposed to be called.

I don't want to start the 'get the call right' crusade again, but we've witnessed too many movements in professional and amateur ball to do this. While it is the lazy out, you can and will take just as much heat for blowing that call. Umpires are supposed to call what they see. If you allow one team an advantage you are not serving the best interest of the game.

As a tribute to calling what is correct, Bruce Froemming was crucified for calling ball four on a ninth inning, two out perfect game by Milt Pappas. Froemming insists that the ball was outside and Pappas counters that the pitch was close enough. There aren't too many times that an umpire, fan, player or coach get to see a MLB perfect game. Froemming could have taken the easy way out.

[mrm21711]

This has more to do with what is "accepted" in different areas.

Here in the Southern areas of the state, coaches want and expect a low strike to be called. The pitch below the knees this is. Up in the northern part of the state, that pitch is a taboo for a strike. One very respected umpire from the north says "we give them what they want." Its always a problem come state tournament time (this week as I type) when the northern teams play the southern teams with different umpires. I believe in calling "your" zone no matter what, but obviously some respected and VERY successful umpries disagree. Thoughts?

[TussAgee11]

We are all talking about two different things, in my mind, the double play neighborhood "rule" and the tag play.

Double Play: If the infielder has to make no extra ordinary effort to catch the ball (throw is on the money) and his timing is smooth coming across the bag... he's out. Its the way the majority of excellent umpires do it, safety in numbers.

Tag Play: I see both sides of this one. Not long ago I was the catcher that always made good tags, and would make great slides and be called out. Game management should not interfere with right/wrong calls. If you aren't exactly sure what you saw, OUT! If you see him squeek in for sure, SAFE! Then when the coach comes "Coach, he missed the tag by a good foot." But you really have to be sure if you call him Safe. Anything before about 90% sure and he should be Out, in my mind.

Thoughts?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

--If its a "sloppy" tag, then the play didnt play out as "expected". Then you might have a "safe, no tag!". If the throw is good, and the fielder drops the glove down, and brings it back up, what looks like an out, is an out. Similar to a ground ball, and F1 pulling off the bag a hair before the ball hits his mitt, when BR is out by several feet. Are you going to safe that?
--If you dont give the "expected" call, especially at higher levels, the coaches arnt used to seeing that. They see that called out every time, and if you safe it cause F6 missed the tag by an inch, you may be technically right, but for intents and purposes, its an out.
--When I first started, I didnt buy into the expected call either. But as Ive moved up, talked with higher level officials, seen how the game is called and played, thats just the way it is. Any deviation, will cause you problems.
--I posted this before, but Ill mention it again. I worked two HS games this season with a D1 umpire here in So Calif. He does all the big schools here, the Cal State Fullertons, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. He assigns for JC ball. Im trying to move up to the JC level. He works a few HS games a year with guys like myself to evaluate. So this is coming from someone who goes through this stuff.
I was on the bases. R1 stealing. Very smililar play to what we're discussing. F2 strong throw. F6 nice reception. Ball beats runner, F6 lays glove down, and I see a miss, albeit an inch or so. I safe it. Def coach comes out a few feet, and asks "miss the tag?". Meaning, it sure looked like an out to everyone else, what could have happenned to give a safe?
I say yep, missed the tag.
In discussing after the game, my partner asked what I had. I said I had a miss. He said, that at any level above "ankle-biters" that is an out. And if I want to make it to the next level and be successful, thats an out. He agreed that if any part of the play deviates (bad throw, poor reception, bobble) then go with that, but if all the elements are there, throw, reception, glove down then up, its an out. Yeah, were out there to see things others dont, and rule accordingly, but were ALSO out there to affirm what everyone sees.
He mentioned something interesting also. He said..."I dont know if you played ball when you were younger......." Whcih tells me in his observation of my performance Im not calling certain aspects to what is, yes, expected.
No one has to question integrity. This seems pretty easy. R1 tries to steal, ball clearly beats him, F6 lays down glove, and brings it back up a hair in front of a sliding runner trying to keep his hand intact. We want outs. The runner knows hes out, the fielder knows hes out, as well as the coaches. Geez, get the out. And at the upper levels, none of the aforementioned will say a peep. Because, thats the way its played.
Just my opinion....

Exactly. It must be a regional thing. Out here in SoCal, that is the way they want it called. Not just some coaches, PDX, all the coaches.