The phantom out (Expected call)

[chuckfan1]

--If its a "sloppy" tag, then the play didnt play out as "expected". Then you might have a "safe, no tag!". If the throw is good, and the fielder drops the glove down, and brings it back up, what looks like an out, is an out. Similar to a ground ball, and F1 pulling off the bag a hair before the ball hits his mitt, when BR is out by several feet. Are you going to safe that?
--If you dont give the "expected" call, especially at higher levels, the coaches arnt used to seeing that. They see that called out every time, and if you safe it cause F6 missed the tag by an inch, you may be technically right, but for intents and purposes, its an out.
--When I first started, I didnt buy into the expected call either. But as Ive moved up, talked with higher level officials, seen how the game is called and played, thats just the way it is. Any deviation, will cause you problems.
--I posted this before, but Ill mention it again. I worked two HS games this season with a D1 umpire here in So Calif. He does all the big schools here, the Cal State Fullertons, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. He assigns for JC ball. Im trying to move up to the JC level. He works a few HS games a year with guys like myself to evaluate. So this is coming from someone who goes through this stuff.
I was on the bases. R1 stealing. Very smililar play to what we're discussing. F2 strong throw. F6 nice reception. Ball beats runner, F6 lays glove down, and I see a miss, albeit an inch or so. I safe it. Def coach comes out a few feet, and asks "miss the tag?". Meaning, it sure looked like an out to everyone else, what could have happenned to give a safe?
I say yep, missed the tag.
In discussing after the game, my partner asked what I had. I said I had a miss. He said, that at any level above "ankle-biters" that is an out. And if I want to make it to the next level and be successful, thats an out. He agreed that if any part of the play deviates (bad throw, poor reception, bobble) then go with that, but if all the elements are there, throw, reception, glove down then up, its an out. Yeah, were out there to see things others dont, and rule accordingly, but were ALSO out there to affirm what everyone sees.
He mentioned something interesting also. He said..."I dont know if you played ball when you were younger......." Whcih tells me in his observation of my performance Im not calling certain aspects to what is, yes, expected.
No one has to question integrity. This seems pretty easy. R1 tries to steal, ball clearly beats him, F6 lays down glove, and brings it back up a hair in front of a sliding runner trying to keep his hand intact. We want outs. The runner knows hes out, the fielder knows hes out, as well as the coaches. Geez, get the out. And at the upper levels, none of the aforementioned will say a peep. Because, thats the way its played.
Just my opinion....

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Every year this gets debated ad nauseum...anyone remember Carl and my squabble over the fence clearing homerun hitter that misses home plate?

I can only offer you this: the myth that the expected call is the only way you will move up has been proven wrong by none other than Dave Yeast. In NCAA baseball, he and his evaluators expect you to make the correct, albeit difficult call. The nonsense about coaches not making a peep when 'everyone in the park knows the call' makes me want to scream. I recall one coach come out to me and argue that steal at second. He says, "Blue - the ball was there five steps before the runner. You've got to make that call." I replied, "Coach, your second baseman needs to learn how to tag the runner. That wasn't a force play." He shook his head and glared at the second baseman. The shortstop (and team captain) barked at the second baseman to do his job and that I would do mine. I smiled and trotted back to my first base position. I never heard a peep and that second baseman learned that he needs to actually tag the runner.

If you start allowing phantom tags and close touches when turning a double play, you will suffer in the long run. Pretty soon, the shortstop or second baseman is going to start dragging his tag foot four feet from the base and then you really will have a ****storm on your hands. Call it the way it is supposed to be called.

I don't want to start the 'get the call right' crusade again, but we've witnessed too many movements in professional and amateur ball to do this. While it is the lazy out, you can and will take just as much heat for blowing that call. Umpires are supposed to call what they see. If you allow one team an advantage you are not serving the best interest of the game.

As a tribute to calling what is correct, Bruce Froemming was crucified for calling ball four on a ninth inning, two out perfect game by Milt Pappas. Froemming insists that the ball was outside and Pappas counters that the pitch was close enough. There aren't too many times that an umpire, fan, player or coach get to see a MLB perfect game. Froemming could have taken the easy way out.

[mrm21711]

This has more to do with what is "accepted" in different areas.

Here in the Southern areas of the state, coaches want and expect a low strike to be called. The pitch below the knees this is. Up in the northern part of the state, that pitch is a taboo for a strike. One very respected umpire from the north says "we give them what they want." Its always a problem come state tournament time (this week as I type) when the northern teams play the southern teams with different umpires. I believe in calling "your" zone no matter what, but obviously some respected and VERY successful umpries disagree. Thoughts?

[TussAgee11]

We are all talking about two different things, in my mind, the double play neighborhood "rule" and the tag play.

Double Play: If the infielder has to make no extra ordinary effort to catch the ball (throw is on the money) and his timing is smooth coming across the bag... he's out. Its the way the majority of excellent umpires do it, safety in numbers.

Tag Play: I see both sides of this one. Not long ago I was the catcher that always made good tags, and would make great slides and be called out. Game management should not interfere with right/wrong calls. If you aren't exactly sure what you saw, OUT! If you see him squeek in for sure, SAFE! Then when the coach comes "Coach, he missed the tag by a good foot." But you really have to be sure if you call him Safe. Anything before about 90% sure and he should be Out, in my mind.

Thoughts?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

--If its a "sloppy" tag, then the play didnt play out as "expected". Then you might have a "safe, no tag!". If the throw is good, and the fielder drops the glove down, and brings it back up, what looks like an out, is an out. Similar to a ground ball, and F1 pulling off the bag a hair before the ball hits his mitt, when BR is out by several feet. Are you going to safe that?
--If you dont give the "expected" call, especially at higher levels, the coaches arnt used to seeing that. They see that called out every time, and if you safe it cause F6 missed the tag by an inch, you may be technically right, but for intents and purposes, its an out.
--When I first started, I didnt buy into the expected call either. But as Ive moved up, talked with higher level officials, seen how the game is called and played, thats just the way it is. Any deviation, will cause you problems.
--I posted this before, but Ill mention it again. I worked two HS games this season with a D1 umpire here in So Calif. He does all the big schools here, the Cal State Fullertons, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc. He assigns for JC ball. Im trying to move up to the JC level. He works a few HS games a year with guys like myself to evaluate. So this is coming from someone who goes through this stuff.
I was on the bases. R1 stealing. Very smililar play to what we're discussing. F2 strong throw. F6 nice reception. Ball beats runner, F6 lays glove down, and I see a miss, albeit an inch or so. I safe it. Def coach comes out a few feet, and asks "miss the tag?". Meaning, it sure looked like an out to everyone else, what could have happenned to give a safe?
I say yep, missed the tag.
In discussing after the game, my partner asked what I had. I said I had a miss. He said, that at any level above "ankle-biters" that is an out. And if I want to make it to the next level and be successful, thats an out. He agreed that if any part of the play deviates (bad throw, poor reception, bobble) then go with that, but if all the elements are there, throw, reception, glove down then up, its an out. Yeah, were out there to see things others dont, and rule accordingly, but were ALSO out there to affirm what everyone sees.
He mentioned something interesting also. He said..."I dont know if you played ball when you were younger......." Whcih tells me in his observation of my performance Im not calling certain aspects to what is, yes, expected.
No one has to question integrity. This seems pretty easy. R1 tries to steal, ball clearly beats him, F6 lays down glove, and brings it back up a hair in front of a sliding runner trying to keep his hand intact. We want outs. The runner knows hes out, the fielder knows hes out, as well as the coaches. Geez, get the out. And at the upper levels, none of the aforementioned will say a peep. Because, thats the way its played.
Just my opinion....

Exactly. It must be a regional thing. Out here in SoCal, that is the way they want it called. Not just some coaches, PDX, all the coaches.