Big dog, little dog again

Gre144 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 17, 2001, 09:45pm

As the umpire behind the plate you have to make the final decision. You have two choices, your choice or your partner's choice. If you go along with your partner's choice, even though it was the wrong call, you need to stick with that decision. This reminds me of a situation that I had a few days ago. The batter runner is at the plate ready to bat but does not report. The defensive team appeals. PU calls the batter runner out. Offensive coach gets upset. I talk to my parterner and told him that the batter runner became a legal sub upon entering the game. I told him that I was sure but he didn't buy it. So I said to him, "Hey, I will go along with your decision." The end result is that everyone was happy because we got the game going again right away.

In your situation, it sounds like the offensive coach knew the rule. With this in mind, you should have stuck with your decision and said "As the home plate umpire, I will count the score." After making such a statement get the game moving along.(At this point don't even discuss the situation with the base umpire. Just get behind the plate and say play ball.) As an umpire at home plate you are the judge and final arbiter. You must interpret the rules to the best of your ability and live or die with you decisions.

Finally, common sense can go a long ways when you are not sure of a rule interpretation. Let's say the losing team is down by 15 runs. They finally get a score but the other team argues the legitimacy of the score. Should you count the score or not?
I would count the score. Conversely, lets say the winning team scores another run under a controversial situation. Do you count the score or not? I would take the score a way.

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:55 PM]

edhern · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 18, 2001, 12:16am

Bases loaded, one out, fly ball caught by F9, R3 tags and scores, R1,R2 take off, both between 2nd and 3rd, F9 throws to second (after R3 crosses the plate), R2 out. Does the run score? I say yes, it is now a time play and R3 scored before the out was made. My partner a long time varsity ump with years of playoff exp. says no run, the runners were forced for the third out. Coach goes nuts and I try to talk to my partner but he insists. The League Director just happens to be there and tries to get the interperter on the phone. Try explaining this on Nextel. I am the PU, but do not overrule my partner and the run doesn't count. We continue the discussion into the parking lot, but I will not back down that I am right. I gave in in the interest of peace, it had no impact on the game, 16-1 final. Is that what the little dogs have to do? If I am right, do I make sure word gets back to him (there would be no repercussions because it is not that type of league or association and he wouldn't take offense)? It is not the first time the bigger dogs have misinterpreted a rule or two and have "bet" on the results.

Ed H

bluezebra · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 18, 2001, 12:38am

He may be a "big Dog", but he needs to study the rules. With a dumb misinterpretation like that, how does he get playoff games?

Bob

Bfair · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 18, 2001, 05:27am

First, Ed, you say you are PU. That provides YOU final say on RULE INTERPRETATION---not judgement calls unless he was assigned as a crew chief.

I would have recommended here that after the pard had wrong interpretation, you approach him to advise him of your thoughts. Keep in mind, it may not be interpretation. He may have felt that runner did not score before the last putout to end the inning---thus a judgement call vs. a rule interpretation. (In any event, the timing of runner scoring AND the rule interp on whether run scores should both have been YOUR call as PU in the actual play. He poached YOUR call.)

If it is interpretation vs. judgement, and you feel absolutely certain of your interpretation being correct, make the correct interpretation and score the run. You have the right and duty. Despite the score, the credibility of you and your crew are at stake. You may have either of these teams in future where you need that credibility (versus them remembering you and this blown call). The score of your game should have no bearing in whether you make a correct or incorrect rule interpretation. I will agree in a lopsided contest that most tend to give the underdog the benefit of any doubt regarding judgement calls. That is common to do. Even being a Big Dog pard, you have shown him you got the call right. He can't hold it against you for getting it right (provided you do it discreetly), and he'll not want to mention it to anyone since it would have been HIS blown interpretation. You certainly are at risk that if you make the wrong interpretation and override him it will hang on you for a long, long time politically.

If you have ANY doubt as to the correct rule interp, go with the Big Dog. He can take the heat on a blown interp within your organization. As a little dog, if you make the wrong interp (especially if you legally override a big dog in doing so) it will stick to you for a long time and cause you grief. If you are not certain and tell him what you think (and you are right) yet stick with his interp, you will show your knowledge AND your willingness to let the Big Dog be the Big Dog---acceptance of his position and authority.

Just my opinion,

Freix

BJ Moose · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 19, 2001, 10:34pm

But how did this actually go down? It should have looked like this:

Ball hit.. you lined up R3 and ball in right. You see R3 legally tag and come home. You observe "appeal" play at 2nd, and observe the call of BU who calls R2 OUT!

Immediately you should have pointed agressively at the plate and announced loudly.. "Count the Run! Count the Run!" looking at score booth, or book.

Now if you nitwit nimrod partner wants to argue with YOU about it you can tell him he's nuts and he isn't going to OVERRULE your call. (Run counts).

Quote:

Originally posted by edhern
Bases loaded, one out, fly ball caught by F9, R3 tags and scores, R1,R2 take off, both between 2nd and 3rd, F9 throws to second (after R3 crosses the plate), R2 out. Does the run score? I say yes, it is now a time play and R3 scored before the out was made. My partner a long time varsity ump with years of playoff exp. says no run, the runners were forced for the third out

Gre144 · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 20, 2001, 12:26am

The score of your game should have no bearing in whether you make a correct or incorrect rule interpretation. __________________________________________________ _________

My point was that if both umpires have no idea what the correct ruling is you should give the benefit to the team that is far behind.

edhern · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 20, 2001, 11:15pm

It went down by the right fielder looking to make a play at the plate. When he saw he couldn't throw him out he held the ball and then his teammates were yelling "throw to second" which he did. So the run definitely scored before the out.

On the last post on the score. The run had no bearing on the game. The league coordinator got a half-hearted (and understood) confirmation from the Assoc. Interpreter it was not worth creating a world of problems at the time. Even though you think you know the rule you always have doubts, especially when all hell breaks loose and experienced people tell you the opposite. When you think about it then you can process everything. I would have counted the run if there was any chance at there being a close game. I will see the Interpreter Sat. and will go over it with him then. Many assocs. and leagues do the support your partner first thing even though he had no business making the call. That is why I posted it in the first place, to get other opinions on how they would have handled it.

Ed H