What is going to happen to MiLB now?

[JIGGY]

Originally Posted by Sal Giaco

Jiggy,
When it comes down to it, it's all about the almighty dollar. Umpires are an expense, not an investment to MiLB. Why should they dump any more money than they have to - afterall, they are not the ones that reap the benefits of umpire development.

I think they have made it pretty clear as to where umpires are on the priority list (MiLB said they have the money but don't want to spend it on umpiring). I think they crunched the numbers and figured out that they could cut down on expenses by busting the union and then rehiring them as independent contractors. They can also save money by getting rid of PBUC and letting MLB worry about ultimately developing umpires for the big leagues.

Will the quality of officiating suffer by "outsourcing" the umpiring in MiLB? Absolutely. But you know what... they probably don't care as long as they're saving money, not adversely effecting the game and of course, not losing any fans in the seats.

I agree that there are dollars and sense at work here, I disagree that MiLB doesn't care at all about the quality of umpires they put on their fields long term. They care because the players care, the managers care, and most importantly the Farm Directors care. This is the very essence of the ambiguous relationship between MLB and MiLB. It could be argued that MiLB is holding out and allowing this circus of scabs not just to break the AMLU but also MLB, a sort of backdoor way to press the issue of funding from MLB for umpire development. (for all of you who will want to chime in and give a history of the UDP and MLB's funding of it, please don't. I am well aware, that's my point.) If MLB again began dumping money into umpire development, MiLB and more specifically PBUC and the AMLU wouldn't seem so far opposed.

[JRutledge]

They will not care until there is a play, a series or a playoff opportunity that is totally screwed up and it might in their mind cost someone a win of a series or a playoff spot. Now one of the issues here, on this site and other places on the internet is the only place this is even being talked about. The national media does not care about this issue right now either way. I have been saying for years that most people do not have an emotional attachment to baseball in the Minor Leagues. Unless you live in right next to a Minor League Park this might never be something you would even talk about or hear about with people face to face. I live about 20 minutes from a Minor League park and I cannot tell you anything concrete about the team but the fact that Dontrell Willis and Josh Beckett once played there. This is not like any other type of strike; no one knows most of the names or faces to this story. I think when people try to make this all gloom and doom, they are not being very realistic if you ask me.

Once again we will not know what happens until this situation is over. This can last all season and we still will not know. Just because some replacements are working (BTW many are paid more than the regular umpires and the same umpires are working all the games) does not mean the union is not going to get what they want in the end.

Peace

[Sal Giaco]

Originally Posted by JIGGY

I agree that there are dollars and sense at work here, I disagree that MiLB doesn't care at all about the quality of umpires they put on their fields long term. They care because the players care, the managers care, and most importantly the Farm Directors care. This is the very essence of the ambiguous relationship between MLB and MiLB. It could be argued that MiLB is holding out and allowing this circus of scabs not just to break the AMLU but also MLB, a sort of backdoor way to press the issue of funding from MLB for umpire development. (for all of you who will want to chime in and give a history of the UDP and MLB's funding of it, please don't. I am well aware, that's my point.) If MLB again began dumping money into umpire development, MiLB and more specifically PBUC and the AMLU wouldn't seem so far opposed.

I didn't know that MLB was funding UDP. Did they stop when UDP became PBUC?? MLB is ultimately the one that benefits from umpire development so I think they should be the ones to kick in the "few extra dollars" it takes to keep the umpiring system going at the MiLB level. The problem is, according to one big league umpire who I spoke to regarding this, MLB is yet to realize the importance of umpire development - even at the big league level they are reluctant to fund the resources necessary to make more improvements

[Justme]

Originally Posted by JIGGY

QUOTE=WhatWuzThatBlue "If AMLU disappears, the PBUC system will still be in place and the umpires will still receive training and promotion. Candidates will still have to attend professional school and be evaluated before signing on."

WOW, THIS MAY BE THE ONLY INTELLIGENT INSIGHT ON THE ISSUE YOU HAVE EVER HAD!
Let me address these issues, and specifically JUSTME's list:

Wow, you took all that time to address just my issues......very flattering thank you

I'm not against the strike. I hope that the striking umpires get the deal that they want BUT, they aren't in a very good position. Like it or not that's the facts.

In the job market supply and demand dictates how much a position pays. Just like the supply and demand of gas dictates how much we pay for it. The MiLB umpires are not a big demand item, due to the fact that there are many umpires out there waiting to take their place. Plus the job that the MiLB umpires isn't that important in the overall scope of the country's needs (in fact not even MLB's needs it seems). Bottom line is low need equals low pay and when there are many people waiting for one position then the employers can get away with offering less money.

It might not be fair, while some believe that the MiLB umpires are deserving of more money, they are not to the people that matter. No matter what you and I think is fair the games will go on, with or without the striking umpires.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Windbag, some of us actually talk to umpires that work Minor League Ball. When you get the balls to put your actual name behind your words, then talk to me then about what I know or do not know.

Peace

Some of us actually were assigned to Minor League Baseball. Lah me!

You'd be surprised who I talk to in the MiLB and PBUC offices. So far, everything I said would happen did. Thus far, the guys who said they knew more were proven wrong. Since last October I've weighed in with insight and experience.

You just made a major blunder regarding the demise of the union. MiLB umpires existed for many years without the union. AMLU was conceived to protect the rights of the umpire. How has that worked so far?

The WBC couldn't get the best umpires available - WUA members. They played the games, they counted and a champion was declared. The same will go for the Minor Leagues this season. In a few weeks, the season will be half over and the D1 guys will come in to shore up some weak spots.

By the way, you made another rookie mistake in a later post; umpires don't cost teams games. I can't recall a game that was won or lost because of an umpire's actions. Nine innings and hundreds of pitches account for the score. Umpires react to the action, not cause it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Some of us actually were assigned to Minor League Baseball. Lah me!

Good for you. When the rest of us care, I will tell you.

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

By the way, you made another rookie mistake in a later post; umpires don't cost teams games. I can't recall a game that was won or lost because of an umpire's actions. Nine innings and hundreds of pitches account for the score. Umpires react to the action, not cause it.

I think you need to read what I actually wrote. I did not say umpires actually cost teams games. I did say that until the teams feel they cost them games there might not be much of a change. Remember Steinbrenner complained about a "rookie" umpire working a big game and making a call or two that cost his team a game. You also have Mark Cuban every other game complain the Mavs are hurt by calls in the NBA and he has been fined multiple times for complaining about the official. If you listen to a lot of the comments after the Super Bowl, many people feel the officials had a major impact on the outcome of the game. Now the reaction will not be so dramatic, but when the perception is that the umpires are making calls they should not whether this is true or untrue. I think I have been around the block enough to know how one call or one situation gets turned into a bigger deal by a team, coach, player and fans. I guess you do not read the paper or watch SportsCenter.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by MrB

I think it is very apparent what Windy thinks is going to happen at this point in the game, but what do some of the rest of you think? I am not talking about should a person work or not, but how do you see the rest of the season playing out?

I think more ex-pro guys and DI guys will come out and work. Many I have talked to say that they have given the union a chance and the writing is on the wall. We all know that not all will work, but it seems like a large number will come out at or around Memorial Day weekend.

A few of the leagues have even asked some guys to consider traveling as crews.

I think the quality of umpiring would improve over the current system

IMO, the Minor League Umpire union is not what I call a "true" union to begin with and frankly I do not understand why a Minor league Umpire would want to join such a Union.

Under the Current system, when an umpire makes it to Triple "A" they have maybe 2/3 yrs. tops to make it to the "show" If they don't they receive a letter in the mail that states "major league baseballl no longer requires your services".

Now what happens to these guys? For all their hard work and sacrifices they are told to go home. No Severance package No nothing. What kind of Union is that. If you want to know what a "true" union is look at the Teamsters who have been around a long time. You pay dues but you get something out of it.

Therefore, if the Minor League Umpires unions folds, perhpas you will see the Triple A guys who have been told to go home in the past re-surface and they will probably have a better chance to make it to the "show" under a new structure then they did under the old one.

Don't you think that there were Talented umpires who made it to triple A that were told to go home?

In Summary: IMO, The quality of umpiring should improve because the talented umpires in Triple A will who did not make it to the "Show" in the time alotted will now have a better chance by being independent contractors.

Therefore, I would not be surprised if these types of umpires are already working.

There's plenty of talent out there, they just need a chance. In addition, the MLB Umpire Union should hire some "old vets" ala Steve Palermo to be mentors for these young guys.

A new structure is needed.

Pete Booth

[lawump]

Originally Posted by JIGGY

(for all of you who will want to chime in and give a history of the UDP and MLB's funding of it, please don't. I am well aware, that's my point.) If MLB again began dumping money into umpire development, MiLB and more specifically PBUC and the AMLU wouldn't seem so far opposed.

I remember being pulled aside by older umpires and told not to worry about UDP changing to PBUC. That it was only being done so that they could get rid of Ed Lawrence without being accused of (racially) discriminating. That the only thing this change would do is get rid of Ed and bring in Fitzy.

I think they were wrong about that being the "only thing".

[Sal Giaco]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I think the quality of umpiring would improve over the current system

IMO, the Minor League Umpire union is not what I call a "true" union to begin with and frankly I do not understand why a Minor league Umpire would want to join such a Union.

Under the Current system, when an umpire makes it to Triple "A" they have maybe 2/3 yrs. tops to make it to the "show" If they don't they receive a letter in the mail that states "major league baseballl no longer requires your services".

Now what happens to these guys? For all their hard work and sacrifices they are told to go home. No Severance package No nothing. What kind of Union is that. If you want to know what a "true" union is look at the Teamsters who have been around a long time. You pay dues but you get something out of it.

Therefore, if the Minor League Umpires unions folds, perhpas you will see the Triple A guys who have been told to go home in the past re-surface and they will probably have a better chance to make it to the "show" under a new structure then they did under the old one.

Don't you think that there were Talented umpires who made it to triple A that were told to go home?

In Summary: IMO, The quality of umpiring should improve because the talented umpires in Triple A will who did not make it to the "Show" in the time alotted will now have a better chance by being independent contractors.

Therefore, I would not be surprised if these types of umpires are already working.

There's plenty of talent out there, they just need a chance. In addition, the MLB Umpire Union should hire some "old vets" ala Steve Palermo to be mentors for these young guys.

A new structure is needed.

Pete Booth

Pete,
I think that's an interesting statement regarding an improvement in the umpiring if they go to independent contractors. As far as ex guys getting a shot in the bigs - I really don't see that happening. Here's why...

If you look at the numbers - three of the next five big league jobs are already accounted for (Davidson, Hallion and Hickox have slots #1, #3 & #5). I think Barksdale is a lock for the #2 spot and Gooch or Drake will probably get #5 slot.

So five current MLB umpires will have to retire for these five guys to move up. Let's just guess that Froemming, Brinkman, Young, West & Montague are the next to go. After that, Marsh, Cousins, Crawford, Reilly and maybe MCClelland are the only ones left that are near retirement. I think those 22 guys that came up in '99 really caused a back log and thus, there really won't be a need to replace many MLB umpires in the next 10 yrs.

I could be wrong but I'm just looking at it from a numbers standpoint.

[PeteBooth]

[I][QUOTE=Sal Giaco]Pete,
I think that's an interesting statement regarding an improvement in the umpiring if they go to independent contractors. As far as ex guys getting a shot in the bigs - I really don't see that happening.

Sal my main point was that under a new structure ala independent contractors, Triple A Umpires who were told to go home in the past could still work Minor League games. You are probably right in that they have little if no chance to make it to the Bigs.

IMO , the major improvement would be in the fact that Triple "A" Umpires who did not make it to the "show" could still umpire professional baseball under a new structure. They wouldn't simply have to go home and try and find "other" work.

I guess we will have to wait and see.


Pete Booth

[Tim C]

Have you heard anything such as the following:

MLB is structuring the MLB umpire system so that the process will automatically retire an umpire when he completes his 25th year of MLB service no matter what his age.

Regards,

[Sal Giaco]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Have you heard anything such as the following:

MLB is structuring the MLB umpire system so that the process will automatically retire an umpire when he completes his 25th year of MLB service no matter what his age.

Regards,

No - I did not hear that

[MrB]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Nick:

Unless the AMLU is decertified as a recognized union, by law the NLRB will not allow the members to be fired . Management can opt to no longer bargain with the AMLU, but they cannot fire anyone.


Tim.

Tim,

I know this is true for most unions, but why then are AMLU memebers released every year?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Have you heard anything such as the following:

MLB is structuring the MLB umpire system so that the process will automatically retire an umpire when he completes his 25th year of MLB service no matter what his age.

Regards,

Sounds something like what airline pilots have. There is a 'hard' max age limit (age 60). You are retired when you turn 60.

[MrB]

Jiggy,

Ok, for get about the high school umpire, and the older ncaa guys that you classified as 15 lbs overweight. Could you work? Not would you work, but could you work? Are you still good enough? Are there more former pro guys than current ones that could work, not would, but could? Now lets consider the top level DI guys, the 100 or so regional guys and the evn larger number that are good enough just haven't broken through yet. Like someone pointed out, there are some weak spots, areas where either guys aren't working or there aren't guys good enough, but if it is the first, then could it be improved by a new system. Like Sal said, it is probably best for all to have a system where guys don't have to give up their life if the can work regionally until it is time to get a look for the bigs. Different yes, but maybe better?