Interference or Not???

[mcrowder]

I think that's an unwritten rule all over.

[Xtopher_66]

"an unwritten rule that you toss the coach when he brings a rule book out"

This is crazy. While the umpire may feel that his feelings are being hurt what the heck is wrong with trying to get a rule correct? If the coach and the ump check the rule out someone will probably, gulp, learn something!

My kids play Hot Stove Baseball in Ohio and we routinely have umpires that are 15 & 16 years old. Very often they don't know the rules and bringing out a rulebook makes sense to me when I know right where the rule is and can help.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Xtopher_66

"an unwritten rule that you toss the coach when he brings a rule book out"

This is crazy. While the umpire may feel that his feelings are being hurt what the heck is wrong with trying to get a rule correct? If the coach and the ump check the rule out someone will probably, gulp, learn something!

My kids play Hot Stove Baseball in Ohio and we routinely have umpires that are 15 & 16 years old. Very often they don't know the rules and bringing out a rulebook makes sense to me when I know right where the rule is and can help.

Maybe you can get away with that when you have youngsters calling your games. Try it with an experienced umpire and if he has a clue about proper decorum, he's going to run you. We don't want or need a rat coming out waving a rule book in our face to show us up.


Tim.

[Xtopher_66]

Tim
I'm not talking about waving a rule book and shouting insults at you. That's obviously too much and I would expect to get run out of the park by a seasoned umpire.

But help me out. As a coach I see some rulings that either don't seem right to me or sometimes I outright know are wrong.

What is the best way to get you to explain to me your ruling without pissing you off during a game? Can I approach you at all? Suppose you just told me that the dropped third strike rule is not in effect in a two out bases loaded situation. Can I pull the rulebook out of my back pocket and show you?

[BigUmp56]

Your best recourse as a coach if you feel a rule is being missapplied is to calmly discuss it with the umpire. If, after the discussion, you still feel strongly that you received an incorrect ruling you can ask if the two of you can look it up together. That might get you some rythem from a veteran umpire. I can tell you from my perspective that I will not stop a game to look up a rule unless I'm really unsure. Even then I'll only do it to avoid a potential protest. As umpires we're taught to keep a rule book nearby. Most guys will have one in their gear bag or car just in case they need to consult it. It's been a long standing and accepted practice that coaches don't bring rule books onto the field. I'm hoping John or Rich will attest to this for you.



Tim.

[Sal Giaco]

Originally Posted by Xtopher_66

What is the best way to get you to explain to me your ruling without pissing you off during a game? Can I approach you at all? Suppose you just told me that the dropped third strike rule is not in effect in a two out bases loaded situation. Can I pull the rulebook out of my back pocket and show you?

Follow Tim's advice and calmly talk to the umpire about the possible rule infraction. If that doesn't work, ask the umpire to get a second opinion from his partner. If he refuses and your absolutely sure he made a rules mistake, then tell him you want to protest the game. That should trigger that umpire to talk to his partner before he accepts your protest. If the umpires get together and still don't change their minds, then they will accpet your protest and the league will decide the outcome after the game is completed. As Tim said, rulebooks have to business being on a field unless the umpires, not the coach, see a need for it.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by Xtopher_66

Suppose you just told me that the dropped third strike rule is not in effect in a two out bases loaded situation. Can I pull the rulebook out of my back pocket and show you?

Another thing to consider is whether or not it is a correctable error.
Once the ump calls the batter out he's out, there's no do overs even if you were allowed to pull the book out.
So if it is correctable follow Tim's advice, if is not correctable and it is a rules application issue, you might be better off just indicating your desire to protest.

[BlueLawyer]

X:

On another thread recently, we talked about ejections and what certain umpires will put up with.

There are lines with every umpire, and some vary, but all well-trained, experienced umpires will give you the heave-ho for certain magic words or acts. According to my training, these acts are certain to get a coach/player dumped:

1. "You suck/are terrible" and variations upon that theme- the idea is that it is a personal insult- notice that I didn't say "You got that call wrong" will get you dumped. It's an important distinction.

2. Artwork in the dirt after a called strike.

3. Cursing me/at me.

4. Any physical contact, direct (bumping) or indirect (spitting, kicking dirt on) with me. Also, charging from the dugout/coach's box aggressively.

5. Audibly cursing at all. By "audibly cursing" I mean where anybody but me can hear. I work, primarily, high school and youth ball.

6. Questioning my integrity- e.g., "it's hard to win against 11," meaning my partner and I have taken the other team's side.

7. Continuing an argument after a warning to stop.

8. Throwing at a batter after being warned, or if, in my judgment, the pitcher went head hunting at all.

9. Malicious contact.

10. Fighting/leaving dugout/position to fight.

This is not an exhaustive list. However, bringing the rulebook out and showing it to me on the field is a combination of 1 and 2 above, and will get you dumped by every umpire I work with. You are not respectfully suggesting I don't know the rule as well as I should, you are publicly displaying your superior rules knowledge to your players and fans. That's showing me up, and it will get you dismissed.

Strikes and outs!

[insatty]

The interference rule itself won't help you on this play. A thorough reading of the manuals with interpretations will. Jaksa/Roder and BRD come to mind. The fielder is protected during his initial attempt to field the ball. These manuals explain when the fielder loses his protection, like when he misplays the ball and attempts to field it beyond his step and reach.

Personally, after spending much time digesting these manuals several times through, I don't believe that one can umpire well without a working knowlege of the interpretations and how the accomplished umpires officiate these plays. So buy J/R and BRD, and dig in!

As for the coach, you guys blew the call. Thus, you need to give the coach more leeway before ejecting him. When a coach makes his initial move toward you on a play where there is good reason for doubt, and there was no intervening play, hold up your hand and tell him that you'll discuss your doubt with your partner. Since interference will kill the play, this was a missed call that you and your partner could have corrected. Just call the runner out and put the other runners on their time-of-pitch bases and the batter-runner on 1B. Again, good working knowlege of the rules and the interpretations will alert you when there is reason to doubt.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Xtopher_66

Tim
I'm not talking about waving a rule book and shouting insults at you. That's obviously too much and I would expect to get run out of the park by a seasoned umpire.

But help me out. As a coach I see some rulings that either don't seem right to me or sometimes I outright know are wrong.

What is the best way to get you to explain to me your ruling without pissing you off during a game? Can I approach you at all? Suppose you just told me that the dropped third strike rule is not in effect in a two out bases loaded situation. Can I pull the rulebook out of my back pocket and show you?

Xtopher_66,

Since you seem to be actually bothering to learn the rules, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It (generally speaking) really pisses off umpires to see a coach bring a rulebook onto the field. For some reason, even though you're probably just trying to be helpful, they interpret this as if you're trying to "show them up" by calling their competence into question - in front of God and everybody. It's kind of considered "poor etiquette".

Now I always bring my rulebook to the games I coach. And it always remains in the dugout - unless the umpire grants explicit permission for its egress (which has actually happened on a few occasions).

Ultimately, it would be the most rare of occasions when a rulebook would even be useful during a game (see insatty's comments regarding interpretations manuals and such).

If you have a reasonable belief that an umpire may have misapplied a rule in making (or not making) a call during the game, in such a way that your team was materially disadvantaged, ask for time. When it is granted, calmly approach the umpire who made (or failed to make) the call. Politely ask him for a clarification. If you still feel his decision was erroneous, state your case in plain language in terms of your understanding of how the rules should have applied to the situation in question. (Remember, it really doesn't matter what you saw; the only thing relevant in this discussion is what the umpire saw. Yeah, I know it sucks, but that's just the way it is.)

If he finds you unpersuasive, inform him that you are protesting, thank him for entertaining your query, and return to your dugout.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Since you seem to be actually bothering to learn the rules, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It (generally speaking) really pisses off umpires to see a coach bring a rulebook onto the field. For some reason, even though you're probably just trying to be helpful, they interpret this as if you're trying to "show them up" by calling their competence into question - in front of God and everybody. It's kind of considered "poor etiquette".

JM:

1) It really pisses off umpires for a good reason which is:

2) Coaches are not trying to be helpful, they are in fact acting like the rats they are.

3) The reason umpires interpret this as trying to show them up is because that is exactly what the coach is doing. This is not some wild notion umpires have. Bringing out a rule book is indeed calling their competence into question.

4) It is not only considered "poor etiquette," it is extremely poor etiquette.

But thank you for explaining it from a totally biased coach's standpoint. Please let the umpires do this in the future. It is very easy to sit in the dugout and flaunt your knowledge of the rules, and a very different case to actually have to apply these rules in stressful situations. That requires an umpire.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JM:

...

But thank you for explaining it from a totally biased coach's standpoint. Please let the umpires do this in the future. It is very easy to sit in the dugout and flaunt your knowledge of the rules, and a very different case to actually have to apply these rules in stressful situations. That requires an umpire.

S.D. Steve,

Ummm, I could be mistaken, but I believe that Tim (BigUmp56) asked me to explain this from a coach's perspective (see post #8 on this thread). I was merely trying to comply with the umpire's instruction.

While I would certainly concur that a coach should NOT bring his rulebook onto the field (which I believe I said in my earlier post), it may not be the naive coach's intent to "show up the umpire" were he to do so.

Take Xtopher_66's hypothetical posed in his question to Tim where an umpire has made a gross rule misapplication as an example (I know, would probably never happen in the the "real world"). He asks if it would be OK to show the umpire the rule in the rulebook. It doesn't sound to me like his intent is to "show up" the umpire; rather, it seems to me he is trying to "help" the umpire arrive at the correct ruling.

Tim said it would be OK to "ask" the umpire if they could look it up together. I implicitly concurred with him and then went on to say that it would be a rare occasion when it would even be useful to look in the rulebook and suggested what I believe to be a proper procedure for appealing to an umpire to correct his call should the coach believe the umpire misapplied the rules in making his initial call.

I also fully concur that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to actually apply the rules while umpiring a game than it is to (slightly different analogy) sit in front of a computer, with all kinds of reference materials handy, and discuss how those rules might be properly applied in an abstract, theoretical way.

However, if you want to talk about stressful, try convincing an umpire that he has just made an incorrect call in a game when:

1. He can eject you, pretty much for any reason he feels appropriate.

2. His version of what actually happened is the only one that matters.

3. He is already predisposed to believe his knowledge of the rules is vastly superior to your own (usually, but not always, correctly so).

4. In many cases, he is predisposed to believe that you have the moral character and integrity of a rodent.

It's not only stressful, it's quite difficult to accomplish.

JM