Rising fastball

[SAump]

The trash is picked up early in the morning.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Who said that an 85 mph fastball doesn't appear to rise? It certainly wasn't me. It's all about perception and expectation. If a batter is looking for a 65 mph bender and a pitcher throws an 85 mph heater the ball will get on him much quicker that he expected and he will perceive that the ball exploded, or rose as it reached the plate. It seems to me that you wan't someone else to do the work for you. There are many, many articles on this subject available on the Internet. If you really want to know why the rising fastball is an optical illusion you need to some work for yourself.



Tim.

I know exactly the explanation given for the supposed optical illusion.
I also know that an "exploding" fastball is not a rising fastball.
If a batter is expecting offspeed and gets a fastball his timing is screwed but he's not saying the ball is rising.
Of all the pitchers that legend has given the rising fastball ability, none have topped out at 85 with their fastball. No one has ever accused Greg Maddux of having a rising fastball, yet over the years he has confounded, confused and kept more hitters off balance than anyone else. If the optical illusion of a rising fastball was simply expecting one speed and the actual speed being 5-10 faster then Maddux should be the king of the rising fastball.
Like I've said in prior posts, the logic of the optical illusion doesn't add up.
You knew what I was driving at and you avoided the issue because you can't explain it.

[UmpJM]

I was just wondering if any of you guys have ever had any luck with teaching a pig to sing?

I tried with mine once, but after a while he just seemed to get kind of pissed off.

Never did sing worth a damn.

In retrospect, I think it might have been a waste of my time to even try.

JM

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I know exactly the explanation given for the supposed optical illusion.
I also know that an "exploding" fastball is not a rising fastball.
If a batter is expecting offspeed and gets a fastball his timing is screwed but he's not saying the ball is rising.
Of all the pitchers that legend has given the rising fastball ability, none have topped out at 85 with their fastball. No one has ever accused Greg Maddux of having a rising fastball, yet over the years he has confounded, confused and kept more hitters off balance than anyone else. If the optical illusion of a rising fastball was simply expecting one speed and the actual speed being 5-10 faster then Maddux should be the king of the rising fastball.
Like I've said in prior posts, the logic of the optical illusion doesn't add up.
You knew what I was driving at and you avoided the issue because you can't explain it.

Since you insist.




For years batters swore that some pitchers could throw a rising fastball. The laws of physics say this is impossible. Instead, it's an illusion caused when the pitcher throws a faster pitch than the batter has seen. In bottom figure b, the batter watches the ball for the first part of its flight and calculates its drop. Then he looks down at the bat and the ball appears to have jumped because it's higher than where his mental model predicted it would be, based on earlier, slower pitches as shown in the top illustration. (Graphic by Alison Habel)


By Ed Stiles
February 18, 2000

Baseball is numbers to Terry Bahill, as well - but of a different kind. The University of Arizona professor of systems and industrial engineering has used numbers, graphs and mathematical analysis to investigate some of baseball's more intriguing questions, most of which center around that half second between the time a pitcher releases the ball and the moment the batter hits it.


The Rising Fastball —

For years batters swore that some pitchers could throw a rising fastball that would "jump" a half foot as it crossed the plate, making it hop over the bat. But this isn't possible, Bahill says. Even the greatest pitchers can't violate the laws of physics. Once a ball is thrown, it follows a smooth trajectory. Physics simply doesn't allow abrupt jumps in that trajectory.


So what's happening? "The batter is using the wrong mental model," Bahill says.

Batters divide a pitch into thirds. The first third is sensory gathering, the second is computing, and the third is swinging. So a pitcher throws several 90-mph fastballs and the batter develops a mental model and reaction to this speed, Bahill says.

Then the pitcher slips in a 95-mph fastball. During the sensory gathering segment of the pitch, the batter doesn't see anything different. He calculates where the 90-mph fastball would go and swings at that spot. But the 95-mph fastball has a flatter trajectory. It doesn't drop quite as much from the pitcher to plate because it's going faster.

"When the batter starts to swing, he takes his eye off the ball to look at the predicted bat-ball collision point," Bahill says. "When the ball comes back into his view, it is higher than his mental model predicted and he sees it 'jump' higher than where he calculated that it would be."



Tim.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Since you insist.




For years batters swore that some pitchers could throw a rising fastball. The laws of physics say this is impossible. Instead, it's an illusion caused when the pitcher throws a faster pitch than the batter has seen. In bottom figure b, the batter watches the ball for the first part of its flight and calculates its drop. Then he looks down at the bat and the ball appears to have jumped because it's higher than where his mental model predicted it would be, based on earlier, slower pitches as shown in the top illustration. (Graphic by Alison Habel)


By Ed Stiles
February 18, 2000

Baseball is numbers to Terry Bahill, as well - but of a different kind. The University of Arizona professor of systems and industrial engineering has used numbers, graphs and mathematical analysis to investigate some of baseball's more intriguing questions, most of which center around that half second between the time a pitcher releases the ball and the moment the batter hits it.


The Rising Fastball —

For years batters swore that some pitchers could throw a rising fastball that would "jump" a half foot as it crossed the plate, making it hop over the bat. But this isn't possible, Bahill says. Even the greatest pitchers can't violate the laws of physics. Once a ball is thrown, it follows a smooth trajectory. Physics simply doesn't allow abrupt jumps in that trajectory.


So what's happening? "The batter is using the wrong mental model," Bahill says.

Batters divide a pitch into thirds. The first third is sensory gathering, the second is computing, and the third is swinging. So a pitcher throws several 90-mph fastballs and the batter develops a mental model and reaction to this speed, Bahill says.

Then the pitcher slips in a 95-mph fastball. During the sensory gathering segment of the pitch, the batter doesn't see anything different. He calculates where the 90-mph fastball would go and swings at that spot. But the 95-mph fastball has a flatter trajectory. It doesn't drop quite as much from the pitcher to plate because it's going faster.

"When the batter starts to swing, he takes his eye off the ball to look at the predicted bat-ball collision point," Bahill says. "When the ball comes back into his view, it is higher than his mental model predicted and he sees it 'jump' higher than where he calculated that it would be."



Tim.

In your illustration, the trajectory of the ball for the first 20 feet would take the ball just below the neck of the batter, yet the pitch finishes waist high.
What speed would this pitch be for that amount of drop? Assuming it is a fastball and assuming a normal sized man that would be about a 16 to 18" drop from the initial trajectory.
I'm guessing that's about a 50-60 mile an hour gasser.
I can't count the number of 12 yr old games I've done where the kid was bringing 55 mph heat, the ball was dropping 16" and everyone in the crowd was gasping WOW did you see that ball jump.

If a pitch is released at 5' above home plate with an initial trajectory that plots out to 3' above home plate, after drag and gravity and all that other good stuff, at what heighth will a 100 mph fastball be when it crosses the plate? How about a 90 and 85mph ball?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Not being a softball person, I'd really be interested in how you throw a softball underhand, with any velocity, and get backspin on it, as with an overhand thrown fastball. If you did, it would work against making the ball rise, but since the ball is being thrown in a upward direction from the start, the spin is overcome by inertia. And a rising Softball is not the same thing as a rising Fastball, which is thrown downward, and then rises.

-------------------------
Release the softball under hand and snap the wrist/hand upward to allow the ball to travel upward along the fingers imparting an UPward spin from the front of the ball toward the back of the ball as it is traveling toward the hitter. Softballs have been clocked on radar in the lower seventies.

Grip the baseball along all four seams and snap the wrist downward to allow the ball to travel upward along the fingers imparting an UPward spin from the front of the ball toward the back of the ball as it is traveling toward the hitter. Baseballs have been clocked on radar in the very low hundreds.

Like guitar players, A MLB grip often results in soreness on the ends of the finger and/or the growth of callus. If you have never thrown a baseball which resulted in the growth of callus on the fingertips, then you cannot imagine what the release of a RISING fastball must feel like.
----------------------
callous or callus? Do not confuse the spelling of callous and callus, which sound similar. Callous is an adjective meaning "insensitive or unfeeling," as in a callous remark. Callus is a noun that usually denotes a patch of thickened skin on the hand or foot.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by NIump50

If a pitch is released at 5' above home plate with an initial trajectory that plots out to 3' above home plate, after drag and gravity and all that other good stuff, at what height will a 100 mph fastball be when it crosses the plate? How about a 90 and 85mph ball?

---------------------

Can you handle the truth?
Which numbers do you want to see?

The argument that a RISING fastball cannot be thrown overhand is definitely TRUE at all speeds below 70 mph. 88 mph was a special number. I never argued that this rising fastball concept wasn't TRUE between 70 and 90 mph as well. I also did the math work and came up with some very interesting numbers, 93 mph, 96 mph and 98 mph. Somehow this work disappeared when the original AUTHOR HIT the DELETE thread BUTTON.

To be sure that my calculations were CORRECT, I rounded these figures to an even 100 mph. I located a page of MLB pitchers who were all clocked at throwing baseballs at over a 100 mph. I even noticed that many pitchers were not on the table because someone never officialy clocked them on RADAR. I also noted that NOLAN RYAN's speed was clocked just above 101 mph, even though he was reported to have thrown a 105 mph baseball in his time in the minors. There was also a minor leaguer who could chunk the ball from home plate over the center field wall that didn't make the list.

But the memories of my missing DATA, my missing numbered proofs, my missing initial attempts at introducing/explaining RISE are now GONE from the record. So sad! Barry Bonds must be nervous about adding that asterick.

[Carbide Keyman]

everything spinning, eyes can't focus, going black, help meeeeeeeeeeeeee, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[NFump]

Quick! Someone throw some water on Carbide!

And 88mph was the speed that Marty McFly needed to get the time machine to work(that's why it's special).

[Kaliix]

Hey man, no one is forcing you to click on the link and read the thread.

If it bothers you that much, STOP F'ING READING IT!!!

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman

everything spinning, eyes can't focus, going black, help meeeeeeeeeeeeee, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[SAump]

Oberle CD, McBeath MK, Madigan SC, Sugar TG.

Department of Psychology, Arizona State University, Box 871104, Tempe, AZ 85287, USA. [email protected]

This research introduces a new naive physics belief, the Galileo bias, whereby people ignore air resistance and falsely believe that all objects fall at the same rate. Survey results revealed that this bias is held by many and is surprisingly strongest for those with formal physics instruction.

--------------

Haven't I witnessed this all along?

[SAump]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=2&c=y

"When I ran computer simulations of pitches, I made some interesting discoveries. I learned that over the standard pitching distance of 60 ft. 6 in., a ball loses about 9 percent of its initial speed due to aerodynamic drag--thus a pitch launched at 90 mph will have slowed to 81 mph when it reaches the batter."

"After all, a baseball must obey the laws of physics, and there was a well-established theory and sufficient data available to allow me to calculate the aerodynamic forces on a baseball in flight."

-------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

He (Galileo) also concluded that objects retain their velocity unless a force – often friction – acts upon them, refuting the accepted Aristotelian hypothesis that objects "naturally" slow down and stop unless a force acts upon them (again John Philoponus had proposed a similar (though erroneous) theory). Galileo's Principle of Inertia stated: "A body moving on a level surface will continue in the same direction at constant speed unless disturbed." This principle was incorporated into Newton's laws of motion (1st law).
------------

Only one can be true. I believe Newton's First Law of Motion trumps the statement, "a pitch launched at 90 mph will have slowed to 81 mph when it reaches the batter." I saw a lot of 90 mile an hour pitches an none of them slow down at that rate. If a pitch would pass me at the plate at 81 mph then I would have NO PROBLEM hitting it, even at my age. That article is a JOKE. I stated a long time ago that it was full of BS and that I could prove it. I also stated another article provided by BIGUMP about gripping different pitches was also full of BAD MOFO. No one from the peanut gallery believed those who have sided with me at the time. Perhaps you can use your brain this time around and put an end to this MYTH.

[Kaliix]

SAump, you're funny. The abstract you provided proves nothing. In fact, I could see it working against you more than for you. The premise has nothing to do with this discussion, as the physics problem it observes isn't relevant.

If anything, the article shows that people observe things with their minds biased eye. So if I see a fastball rise, it must be true, even if it couteracts the laws of physics.

Originally Posted by SAump

Oberle CD, McBeath MK, Madigan SC, Sugar TG.

Department of Psychology, Arizona State University, Box 871104, Tempe, AZ 85287, USA. [email protected]

This research introduces a new naive physics belief, the Galileo bias, whereby people ignore air resistance and falsely believe that all objects fall at the same rate. Survey results revealed that this bias is held by many and is surprisingly strongest for those with formal physics instruction.

--------------

Haven't I witnessed this all along?

[Kaliix]

Dude, you kill me....

ROTFLMAO!!!

You can't even make a logical argument. LOL

Now pitches don't slow down, drag is nominal....hahahaha

Stop dude, you're killing me....I can't stop giggling.....

Originally Posted by SAump

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=2&c=y

"When I ran computer simulations of pitches, I made some interesting discoveries. I learned that over the standard pitching distance of 60 ft. 6 in., a ball loses about 9 percent of its initial speed due to aerodynamic drag--thus a pitch launched at 90 mph will have slowed to 81 mph when it reaches the batter."

"After all, a baseball must obey the laws of physics, and there was a well-established theory and sufficient data available to allow me to calculate the aerodynamic forces on a baseball in flight."

-------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

He (Galileo) also concluded that objects retain their velocity unless a force – often friction – acts upon them, refuting the accepted Aristotelian hypothesis that objects "naturally" slow down and stop unless a force acts upon them (again John Philoponus had proposed a similar (though erroneous) theory). Galileo's Principle of Inertia stated: "A body moving on a level surface will continue in the same direction at constant speed unless disturbed." This principle was incorporated into Newton's laws of motion (1st law).
------------

Only one can be true. I believe Newton's First Law of Motion trumps the statement, "a pitch launched at 90 mph will have slowed to 81 mph when it reaches the batter." I saw a lot of 90 mile an hour pitches an none of them slow down at that rate. If a pitch would pass me at the plate at 81 mph then I would have NO PROBLEM hitting it, even at my age. That article is a JOKE. I stated a long time ago that it was full of BS and that I could prove it. I also stated another article provided by BIGUMP about gripping different pitches was also full of BAD MOFO. No one from the peanut gallery believed those who have sided with me at the time. Perhaps you can use your brain this time around and put an end to this MYTH.

[SAump]

"According to Newton's law of action and reaction, if the ball deflects the air to one side, the air will push the ball in the opposite direction."

Yep, if you throw a ball downward at a flat angle and the front end of the ball pushes the air downward, then the air will push the ball in the opposite direction, UPWARD. Now most pitches, due to inertia and LOW velocities, will continue their downward trajectory. But under the right conditions, very high velocities and warm stable sea-level air such as DODGER stadium in late-July, the AIR will push the bottom of the ball upward. It may not be detectable unless you LOOK for it, but it is there skimming across the plate. Now don't expect the baseball to FLOAT straight up with over a 90 mph horizontal velocity. But you may notice that it HANGS UP there for a moment, just before impact with the bat or mitt. You may even notice the catcher or hitter adjust the level of their glove or bat at the last milli-second. This same reaction is often caught on camera, especially on STRIKE THREEEEEEE.