Over Rule

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

You need to look at 9.02(c)

9.02(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Think of the $h1t $torm that would arise were the rules to provide for the UIC to step in and make other umpires calls, or worse yet, over turn them because he doesn't agree.


Tim.

Well, I believe the rules to provide for that, and due to the good sense, politeness, and restraint of the umpires, the storm does not happen (very often).

9.02 (c) appears to relate to the behavior of umpires during an appeal. It gives no remedy if the rule is broken. 9.04 (c) explicitely recognizes that different decisions may be taken by different umpires on the same play, and gives the remedy: UIC (or other designate) wins.

I'm not arguing that any UIC should ever do this. I'm only arguing that if one did, it would probably hold up under protest.

-LilLeaguer

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

Well, I believe the rules to provide for that, and due to the good sense, politeness, and restraint of the umpires, the storm does not happen (very often).

9.02 (c) appears to relate to the behavior of umpires during an appeal. It gives no remedy if the rule is broken. 9.04 (c) explicitely recognizes that different decisions may be taken by different umpires on the same play, and gives the remedy: UIC (or other designate) wins.

I'm not arguing that any UIC should ever do this. I'm only arguing that if one did, it would probably hold up under protest.

-LilLeaguer

You would be wrong in that belief. Read this from the MLBUM.

MLBUM

4.12 CREW CONSULTATION AND GETTING THE PLAY RIGHT

As the Casebook Comments to Official Baseball Rule 9.00 point out, the first requisite as an umpire is to get all decisions ultimately correct. Umpire dignity is important-but never as important as getting the play right. In line with this reasoning, the following guidelines should be followed:

(1) An umpire is urged to seek help when that umpire's view is blocked or positioning prevents such umpire from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when that umpire has doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to a proper ruling.

(2) Official Baseball Rule 9.02(c) states, "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it." Therefore, except in special situations such as those referred to below, the umpire making the call must be the one to seek assistance of a partner.

(3) In a limited number of situations, a partner may have critical information that is unknown to the umpire making the call. When the partner is certain that the umpire making the call could benefit from such additional information, the partner should alert the other umpire that there is additional, important information that should be shared. While the mechanics of bringing this information to the attention of the umpire who made the call is left to the crews (walking towards the partner, inconspicuous signal, etc.), crucial, potential call-changing information should not be withheld on a play that has clearly been missed. As noted in the Official Baseball Rules, "Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error."
Nevertheless, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the umpire who made the call.

Plays such as the following lend themselves to the philosophy described above:

* Deciding whether a fly ball that left the playing field was fair or foul.

* Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or a ground-rule double.

* Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball.

* Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because a ball is dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.

* Spectator interference plays.

* Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

GUIDELINES:

When an umpire seeks help, the umpire should do so shortly after making the call. There should not be a lengthy argument with the manager that is followed by a crew conference about the call in question.

* When an umpire seeks help, the conference should always take place away from players and managers. It is suggested that the entire crew meet, as there are cases when an "unlikely" umpire on the crew may have pertinent information.

* Some judgment calls are not subject to reversal. These include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire's knowledge); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); and balls and strikes (other than check swings). Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a catch/no
catch situation with multiple runners.

* Managers are not entitled to a second opinion simply because they dispute a call.

* If a call is reversed, managers are entitled to an explanation. However, managers should not argue about the reversal of a call when the ultimate decision is obviously correct
.
* If an umpire's error such as a missed count or number of outs clearly affects the play, every attempt should be made to correct the error, if possible.



Tim.

[RPatrino]

Umpire's over-ruling one another happens all the time in youth ball. It shouldn't, but it does. It is a combination of lack of training and intimidation of the kids who are doing these games by the adults participating.

I know this from many years of training youth umpires. It is very hard for a young man who his whole life has been told to respect and obey adults to stand up to them.

I once was a coach (I know, I lived on the dark side for a while). During a Pinto game, I once had an umpire change his call based on input from another umpire behind the back stop!!! I was only ejected twice that year, for situations like that. I did not umpire for that league, by the way, for obvious reasons.

Bob P.

[mcrowder]

There IS a possible situation where this might not be the disaster it's being made out to be.

Were the bases loaded?

If so, BU could be correcting PU's misapplication of the rules, if PU thought there had to be a tag, and the ball was caught while F2 was on the plate.

A stretch... but possible.

Barring this, however, BU was WAY off base. Even if he's UIC - he's MUCH further away for any sort of tag call, and has no right to overrule PU's call.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

You would be wrong in that belief. Read this from the MLBUM.
[...]
Tim.

Interesting. Does the MLBUM have any comment at all on disputed calls, covered under 9.04 (c). That rule explicitely calls for the UIC to over rule an umpire without an invitation.

Is the MLBUM considered authoritative when the League resolves protested games?

(Maybe I should be clear. I am not advocating this abuse of 9.04 (c). In many years and hundreds of games I've never seen one umpire over rule another. My point is that the rules do seem to allow for it. The rules also allow for abuses such having different strike zones for each team, which also cannot be protested.)

Thanks,
-LilLeaguer

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

There IS a possible situation where this might not be the disaster it's being made out to be.

Were the bases loaded?

If so, BU could be correcting PU's misapplication of the rules, if PU thought there had to be a tag, and the ball was caught while F2 was on the plate.

A stretch... but possible.

Barring this, however, BU was WAY off base. Even if he's UIC - he's MUCH further away for any sort of tag call, and has no right to overrule PU's call.

Of course, we'll never know what actually happened in the OP's sitch. We've seen time and time again on this board that an outraged Rat distorts the facts so much that our initial answers aren't applicable. Heck, we don't even know what code the game was under. Does FED have a rule similar to 9.04 (c)?

Thanks,
-LilLeaguer

[SanDiegoSteve]

* Cases where a foul tip is dropped by the catcher, causing it to become a foul ball.

I tend to disagree here. We were always taught to sound off as BU when this occurred. Why would you wait to be asked? It's a foul ball. No debate necessary.