Protest Denied -- LL

[NorCalBlue]

The following situation happened last night in a Senior Division All-Star game (Tournament Rules in effect):
With two out in the top of the sixth inning and "Team A" at bat with a runner at first base, the manager substituted a player from his bench who had started the game in the eighth spot in the batting order into the first spot (currently at bat) in the order. The substitute batter hit the second pitch for a single. The "Team B" manager immediately logged the protest and Western Region Little League (San Bernardino) had to be called.
The ruling from San Bernardino was that the at bat stands (a legal hit?) and the illegal substitute was to be replaced on the base paths by the player for whom he was substituted. Protest denied.
Could someone explain this to me?
The Tournament Rules (back part of the rule book) clearly state that any starter or substitute can re-enter the game ONE TIME, but ONLY IN THE SAME BATTING POSITION.
I don't have a rulebook with me, so I cannot figure out what it says about PENALTY.
Can anyone help.
BTW, I was not a coach, manager or parent in this situation, so I do not have any sort of emotional (or other) attachment to this ruling. A friend of mine was involved in this one as the manager and is perplexed as to the ruling. I'm just curious as to if this could be one of those "Little League tries not to decide games" things.

[Rich Ives]

You have to protest before the next pitch or play - Team B Manager blew the timing. T-Rule 10(f)

Now, to fix 10(c) (starter/sub not in at the same time), remove the improper sub and put in a legal sub if you have one or return the player subbed for.

[Buster Light]

I really don't know about LL but it sounds just like the FED rule.
A starter can re-enter in the same slot in the batting order.
If an improper batter takes his turn at bat, which happened
in your case, and it is recognized while he is at bat a proper
replacement is made and NO penalty.
If he gets on base, then if the improper batter is recognized
BEFORE the first pitch to the next batter, he is OUT.
If a pitch is made to the next batter, then it is too late and
the impropper batter becomes legal. The proper next batter would
then be, in your case, the number 9 slot.

Buster

[Patrick Szalapski]

Buster, your ruling is correct for batting out-of-order, which is separate from a plain old illegal substitute.

Now, is the situation interpreted as:

• A starter who reentered in the incorrect spot? (Illegal Sub)
  
• A starter who reentered in the correct spot but batted out of turn? (Batting out of order)
  

The second interpretation is logically sound but not as obvious as the first item. My point, though, is just to make sure you know whether you are dealing with an illegal substitute or a batting-out-of-order. I'll leave the LL experts to determine this case, but dollars-to-donuts says that its an illegal sub and not batting-out-of-order.

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Jul 12th, 2001 at 04:04 PM]

[DJWickham]

For LL, improper substitution is different than BOO. Improper substitution is grounds for protest, and TD's and official scorekeeprs have a duty to speak out before a situation occurs that could lead to a protest. BOO is grounds for an appeal, and TD's and official scorekeepers have a duty to remain silent.

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Buster Light
I really don't know about LL but it sounds just like the FED rule.
A starter can re-enter in the same slot in the batting order.
If an improper batter takes his turn at bat, which happened
in your case, and it is recognized while he is at bat a proper
replacement is made and NO penalty.
If he gets on base, then if the improper batter is recognized
BEFORE the first pitch to the next batter, he is OUT.
If a pitch is made to the next batter, then it is too late and
the impropper batter becomes legal. The proper next batter would
then be, in your case, the number 9 slot.

Buster

I believe that according to Fed rules we would have an illegal substitution. I also believe that since the first batter in the order should have been up, the next batter would be in the number 2 slot not the number 9. Am I wrong? Also, I believe that the improper batter is never called out. He is simply removed from the base if the detection is made before the next legal pitch and the proper batter is declared out. The next batter is the person who follows the person that would have been batting if the improper batter was not at the plate. This person is B2 not B9

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 12th, 2001 at 05:39 PM]

[Gre144]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
[B]Buster, your ruling is correct for batting out-of-order, which is separate from a plain old illegal substitute.
__________________________________________________ ________
If we assume either batting out of order or an illegal substitution than wouldn't the guy in the 2nd slot be up, not the 8th slot, as buster suggested. As I read the thread, the person who should have been up was batter number 1 thus making batter number 2 the guy who bats next. I disagree that Batter number 9 is up.

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 12th, 2001 at 05:38 PM]

[Buster]

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
Buster, your ruling is correct for batting out-of-order, which is separate from a plain old illegal substitute.

You guys nailed me on that one! You are absolutely correct. At least in FED the illegal sub supersedes BOO.
He is out and ejected no matter if it is discovered before or after the next pitch. I did not consider the obvious, that although he is an "eligible" sub, he is "only" eligible in one spot, therefore when he entered in the wrong spot he IS an illegal sub and NOT BOO.
Give Buster a big BOO! Thanks guys!

Buster

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Buster

You guys nailed me on that one! You are absolutely correct. At least in FED the illegal sub supersedes BOO.
He is out and ejected no matter if it is discovered before or after the next pitch. I did not consider the obvious, that although he is an "eligible" sub, he is "only" eligible in one spot, therefore when he entered in the wrong spot he IS an illegal sub and NOT BOO.
Give Buster a big BOO! Thanks guys!

Buster

Who is the next batter? You said B9 I say B2.

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Gre144

Who is the next batter? You said B9 I say B2.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Originally posted by Gre144

Who is the next batter? You said B9 I say B2.

Again, this is an illegal substitute and not a case of batting out of order. Since the starter illegally reentered for B1, the next batter is B2. Where the starter was SUPPOSED to reenter into the lineup is irrelevant once was establish that he is an illegal sub.

P-Sz

[Buster Light]

Originally posted by Gre144

I have conceded that this is an illegal sub and NOT a BOO,
therefore, B2 is correct in this situation.

Buster

[Edited by Buster Light on Jul 13th, 2001 at 08:55 AM]

[Gre144]

I have conceded that this is an illegal sub and NOT a BOO,
therefore, B2 is correct in this situation.

Buster

[Edited by Buster Light on Jul 13th, 2001 at 08:55 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

But wouldn't B2 also be the correct answer if you assumed batting out of order?

[Buster]

Originally posted by Gre144
I have conceded that this is an illegal sub and NOT a BOO,
therefore, B2 is correct in this situation.

Buster

[Edited by Buster Light on Jul 13th, 2001 at 08:55 AM]

But wouldn't B2 also be the correct answer if you assumed batting out of order? [/B][/QUOTE]

If he re-entered legaly in the 8 spot but then batted out of order AND it was not detected until after a pitch to the next batter. He would then be legalized and the next proper batter would be the batter that follows him in the batting order, the 9th spot.

Buster

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Buster

But wouldn't B2 also be the correct answer if you assumed batting out of order?

If he re-entered legaly in the 8 spot but then batted out of order AND it was not detected until after a pitch to the next batter. He would then be legalized and the next proper batter would be the batter that follows him in the batting order, the 9th spot.

Buster [/B][/QUOTE]

But if it was detected before the next legal pitch, B2 would be the next batter, correct?

Greg