Holding the ball

[LilLeaguer]

OBR, Rule 2.0:

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

In a game last night, F3 received a throw from F5 at the dirt.

1. Picture F3 touching 1B with his foot, and the ball held between both sides of his glove and the dirt.
2. Two steps later, B/R crosses 1B.
3. After a significant pause, F3 lifts his glove, holding the ball.

Since F3 made no adjustment before lifting his glove, I judged that he had had the ball firmly and securely in his glove (though in contact with the ground) before the B/R crossed the bag. I rang the runner out.

Is this the conventional call, or does contact with the ground preclude a secure holding? (My call was somewhat controversial with the 1st base coach, I think. Not that I noticed his reaction or anything.)

-LilLeaguer

[SAump]

Your description describes a trapped baseball, one that is contacting the ground. It cannot be in contact with the DIRT or lost in his uniform.
He must scoop the ball up or free it from the uniform before the runner has made first base. It can be trapped between is glove and other body parts.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

Since F3 made no adjustment before lifting his glove, I judged that he had had the ball firmly and securely in his glove (though in contact with the ground) before the B/R crossed the bag. I rang the runner out.

LilLeaguer,

Sounds good to me. Heck, the umpire judged secure posession. You pretty much answered your own question.

What SAUmp describes, on the other hand, is most certainly NOT a legal tag. If the ball is...

Originally Posted by SAUmp

...trapped between is (sic) glove and other body parts.

it is certainly NOT being held "...securely and firmly in his hand or glove. " - which the rule you quoted unambiguously states is a requirement for a legal tag.

JM

[DG]

Good call. The ball can be held securely and touch the ground. Happens on shoestring catches in the outfield sometimes.

We have 1B coaches?

[SAump]

Figure out what firmly and securely mean and what glove or hand mean. Then let me know when to add dirt or grass. You can't have the call go both ways IN this thread. TIES such as adding dirt or grass go to the B/R.

F3 LIFTS his glove off the ground with possession before B/R reaches base, then you ring B/R up. I read a baseball in the DIRT was securely trapped by the glove and dirt and raised after B/R touches 1B. Legal possession after the B/R tags should be ruled SAFE. Whether an adjustment was made or not, it doesn't really matter, and only serves to twist away from the proper ruling. If the ball is on the ground, I've got nothing.

Otherwise, F3 securely traps a ball between rib cage and glove. Rather than come loose or bobble the ball, the baseman steps off and reaches in and removes the baseball with his free hand and slams it straight down. When do you rule proper legal possession?

Shoe-string catches that touch the ground are also trapped securely and I hope it was caught and ruled SAFE, base hit or BOTH.

[BigUmp56]

It sounds like a good call to me also. As DG elludes the ball can be held securely and be in partial contact with the ground. As long as F3 picked up the ball cleanly I have an out.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

Figure out what firmly and securely mean and what glove or hand mean. Then let me know when to add dirt or grass.

I know the original poster specified LL/OBR. But, FED 2-9CATCH, NOTE: "A fielder may have the (thrown - ed.) ball in his grasp even though it is touching the groound while in his glove."

THe concept is the same in all rules codes.

[LilLeaguer]

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful.

CoachJM: Yes, I made my description after the manner that I would have explained my call to a manager, if asked: "Rob, I judged that he had the ball securely in his glove." Only the readers on this board know why I made that judgement, and most who responded seem to back my way of thinking.

This is no slight to SAUmp. I can also respect, "Dick, I cannot judge that a ball touching the ground is held securely in the glove."

Of course, that explanation is longer, doesn't get an out, and fails to reward F3 for a very nice stretch and dig.

-LilLeaguer

[SanDiegoSteve]

I wanted to wait until this discussion came full circle.

SAUmp's explanation was wrong, pure and simple. F3 does not have to bring the glove up cleanly prior to the BR reaching 1st base to get the out. The BR can be well past the base, and as long as F3 can pick that glove up and demonstrate total control and the ball stays put, you have an out.

[DG]

I saw one of these last year. I am PU, low fly ball to F7 who catches the ball in the tip of his glove, shoestring style. The ball and glove go on down and the ball touches the ground just barely, while still firmly held in the glove. F7 never lost grip on the ball as he raised his glove hand with ball still in the tip. My partner signals SAFE. Defensive manager comes out to discuss with BU, BU comes to me. He says the ball touched the ground. I asked him to describe exactly what he saw to see if he saw what I saw. I explained to him that what he just described is exactly what I saw and it's a catch because the ball was firmly held when it touched the ground. I ask him what he wants to do. He says we will go with whatever I think. I tell him it's his call to reverse, or explain why he is not going to. He reverses the call. Now Offensive manager comes to me as I am walking back toward home and asks about the reversal. I tell him my partner and I saw the exact same thing, the ball did touch the ground, but it was firmly held at the time and afterwards, and that's a catch by rule. He walked off without asking any more questions. He knew it was a catch also, I suppose.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I wanted to wait until this discussion came full circle. SAUmp's explanation was wrong, pure and simple.

The point about a touch/catch was made. F3 may wait to LIFT ball with Mitt-or-Fingers. The circle is now complete.

Ooops, did I drop the ball?