What's the Call? Base on Balls

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rule 8-4-2h EXCEPTIONS: "If a batter-runner safely touches first base and then overslides or overruns it, except on a base on balls, he may immediately return to first base without penalty, provided he did not attempt to run or feint to second." (emphasis added)

So, we are technically supposed to call the runner out when he overruns first base on a base on balls under FED rules.

You might be simply omitting to say that BR is liable to be tagged out if he overruns 1B. He does have to be tagged.

Or, you might be misinterpreting the FED rule. The rule says that BR may overrun 1B without penalty except on a BB - it does not follow that if he overruns 1B on a BB then there must be a penalty (such as calling him out).

As with any awarded base, the runner is protected up to, but not past, the awarded base, and if the ball is live and in play he may advance at his own risk. What's unusual about a walk is that the ball is alive during and after the award.

I'm not saying that you made this mistake, only that this is one possible interpretation of what you actually wrote, and it gets the rule wrong.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

My 2004 edition says the opposite, and therefore agrees with the MLBUM.

"A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Runners forced to advance are also awarded their advance base. [7.04b] The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. [6.08a] [7.04b] However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."

What year J/R are you quoting from?

My 2002 Edition says the same as above. As the MLBUM is also a 2002 document, perhaps J/R added the last sentence after reading the MLBUM.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

In major league baseball, of course.

MLBUM does not use the word desertion, but gives examples of a B-R who goes to the dugout following a 3rd strike not caught. Reaching the dugout steps is considered the correct distance.

J/R uses the words "reasonable distance" under the desertion discussion.

A contradiction means there is a difference in interpretation. The contradiction appears to be the distance required to call the out, "reasonable distance" vs. "dugout steps".

Neither mentions a B-R who walks and does not touch 1B, but instead goes to the dugout steps to exchange helmet with a CR, most likely because this never happens in MLB, or any other level, except in this one example we are discussing. And I have never seen this happen. The B-R ALWAYS goes to 1b, stands on the base, and even after time is called and he can go to the dugout he stands there until the CR arrives.

So this is indeed a unique situation, and I would indeed call the B-R out for going to the dugout steps instead of going to 1B like he is supposed to. You would not and I respect your thoughts on that.

I also don't expect to ever have to apply this ruling because I have yet to see it happen.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rule 8-4-2h EXCEPTIONS: "If a batter-runner safely touches first base and then overslides or overruns it, except on a base on balls, he may immediately return to first base without penalty, provided he did not attempt to run or feint to second." (emphasis added)

So, we are technically supposed to call the runner out when he overruns first base on a base on balls under FED rules.

This just means they are not PROTECTED back to the base. They are in jeopardy of being put out by a tag, but not immediately called out just because they over-ran or over-slid 1st.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Nick,

I don't think anybody thinks a base on balls as a result of the batter receiving 4 pitched ball is a dead ball.

When people think award, they usually are thinking of the dumbed-down FED rule 2-4-3, which allows a team to just call for an intentional walk, without the 4 wide ones. This is what I was referring to.

Also, apparently it really is an award of 1st when 4 pitched balls are called.

OK, but the OP clearly stated that it was a pitched BOB and not an award. And although it technically is an award, it is a live ball award. I just wanted to make sure that got covered for those who are not quite as up on the rules as others may be.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

My 2004 edition says the opposite, and therefore agrees with the MLBUM.

"A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Runners forced to advance are also awarded their advance base. [7.04b] The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. [6.08a] [7.04b] However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."

What year J/R are you quoting from?

Unfortunately, a very old one. Early 90's edition. I guess they changed their minds about it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by nickrego

This just means they are not PROTECTED back to the base. They are in jeopardy of being put out by a tag, but not immediately called out just because they over-ran or over-slid 1st.

Yes, but in FED only. In OBR, they may overrun the base without jeopardy of being put out by a tag according to rules and apparently all authoritative opinions.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You might be simply omitting to say that BR is liable to be tagged out if he overruns 1B. He does have to be tagged.

Or, you might be misinterpreting the FED rule. The rule says that BR may overrun 1B without penalty except on a BB - it does not follow that if he overruns 1B on a BB then there must be a penalty (such as calling him out).

As with any awarded base, the runner is protected up to, but not past, the awarded base, and if the ball is live and in play he may advance at his own risk. What's unusual about a walk is that the ball is alive during and after the award.

I'm not saying that you made this mistake, only that this is one possible interpretation of what you actually wrote, and it gets the rule wrong.

Just so we are clear:

In FED, you may overrun 1st base on a walk, but they can tag your butt out.

In OBR, you may overrun 1st base on a walk, but they cannot tag your butt out.

That is the difference in a nut shell.

Rich (F) said he would never call the runner out (if he was tagged, I figured he meant) after overrunning 1st base after a base on balls award. I then figured he meant on a dead ball award, not after the live-ball "award" of a 4th ball delivered. A dead ball award is when the defense decides they want an automatic walk issued, and "Time" is called to make the award. But the runner is out if he overruns and is tagged on a live-ball walk.

Yes, what I omitted was that the runner had to be tagged, which I thought was a given. I was also illustrating that FED and OBR once again differ on how to rule on the same play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Only if the defense tags him!

Well, of course. This isn't South Carolina!!!