What's the Call? Base on Balls

[nickrego]

FED 2-4-2
...A base on balls is an award of first base if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

I am having trouble figuring out why everyone thinks a BOB in FED is a dead ball ? I also can not find a reference to the ball becoming dead due to a batter receiving 4 pitched balls in section 5. (this was not an award of 1st)

FED 8-4-2 p.
after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

So, based on what I found in the rules, abandonment doesn't come into effect until after a runner has reached 1st base. I also couldn't find the term 'desertion' in reference to a runner giving up on running the bases.

Unless there is another rule out there that I have overlooked, an umpire doesn't really have a reason to call the batter out. This situation isn't really covered in the rules. Should we just call time, and instruct the batter to go to first before he is replaced by the courtesy runner ? Go ahead and bang him out as a penalty to the offensive team for removing the defense's ability to put the runner out after he reached 1st (many teams throw down to 1st on a BOB in case the batter overruns, steps off the bag to take an immediate lead, or to thwart an attempt to break for second base with a runner on 3rd) ?

[BigUmp56]

Nick:

I don't believe you'll find the term 'desertion' in any rule book. What you'll find is that the J/R covers this as being similar to abandonment. While the J/R was written to be used as a suplemental to OBR it is often used as a suplemental to FED as well. I don't know what Steve was thinking when he mentioned the ball was dead on a BOB. We all know that even though it's an award it's a live ball award.


J/R

By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Any base on balls is technically an award.

I would not, never, never, call someone out on this.

Rule 2-4-2 refers to a base on balls (non-intentional) as a live-ball award.

Rule 8-2-6: "A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns of overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right." (emphasis added)

Rule 8-4-2h EXCEPTIONS: "If a batter-runner safely touches first base and then overslides or overruns it, except on a base on balls, he may immediately return to first base without penalty, provided he did not attempt to run or feint to second." (emphasis added)

So, we are technically supposed to call the runner out when he overruns first base on a base on balls under FED rules.

As for OBR rules:

J/R says:

"(2) A base on balls:

A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Sequential runners are also awarded their advance base. The ball remains live and any runner (including the B-R) who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base, is out."

And of course, this is contradicted by the MLBUM:

"NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(j), and 7.10(c).)"

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:

"A batter who is entitled to 1st base because of "four balls" being called may not overrun or overslide 1st base. This is an award which is administered while the ball is alive and in play. He is entitled to 1st base without liability to be put out...6.08(a). His liability to be put out resumes once he touches the base."

I'm getting a headache....

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

. I don't know what Steve was thinking when he mentioned the ball was dead on a BOB. We all know that even though it's an award it's a live ball award.

The dead ball I was referring to was on an intentional base on balls, as in "Mr. Umpire, put him on." "Time, go to first base."

In 8-1-1c a distinction is made between award and a fourth ball called, that is what I was referring to.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Besides, I thought only Smitty awarded first base on a base on balls. You know, "Ball four, take your base!!!"

Most of us do not "award" first base on the call of ball four, that is my point. Even though, as Rich pointed out, a walk is "technically" an award.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by nickrego

FED 2-4-2
...A base on balls is an award of first base if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

I am having trouble figuring out why everyone thinks a BOB in FED is a dead ball ? I also can not find a reference to the ball becoming dead due to a batter receiving 4 pitched balls in section 5. (this was not an award of 1st)

Nick,

I don't think anybody thinks a base on balls as a result of the batter receiving 4 pitched ball is a dead ball.

When people think award, they usually are thinking of the dumbed-down FED rule 2-4-3, which allows a team to just call for an intentional walk, without the 4 wide ones. This is what I was referring to.

Also, apparently it really is an award of 1st when 4 pitched balls are called.

[Rich Ives]

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:


The MLBUM is the official MLB interpretation and is the one that counts.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And then the MLBUM is contradicted by JEA:


The MLBUM is the official MLB interpretation and is the one that counts.

In major league baseball, of course.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

In major league baseball, of course.

And for anyone else using OBR.

SDS was busy quoting J/R and JEA which are MLB based tomes and commenting on them contradicting each other. Merely pointing out that the MLBUM is the official ruling. That thereby trumps the others.

BTW, LL had it in writing before the MLBUM was published.

The other rulings were, in my mind, based on a "that isn't necessary so we'll not allow it" thought process rather than being rules based.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And for anyone else using OBR.

LL had it in writing before the MLBUM was published.

Since "everyone" doesn't have access to these books, you shouldn't say "everyone."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Since "everyone" doesn't have access to these books, you shouldn't say "everyone."

I didn't - I said "anyone" ;-)

Where in the rule on overrunning does it say "unless the batter became a runner on a base on balls"? It doesn't.

Did you see my edited version?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I didn't - I said "anyone" ;-)

Where in the rule on overrunning does it say "unless the batter became a runner on a base on balls"? It doesn't.

Did you see my edited version?

Yes. I find all this kind of silly, actually, but I have most people on ignore in other threads

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

So, we are technically supposed to call the runner out when he overruns first base on a base on balls under FED rules.

Only if the defense tags him!

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

As for OBR rules:
J/R says:
"(2) A base on balls:
A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Sequential runners are also awarded their advance base. The ball remains live and any runner (including the B-R) who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base, is out."

My 2004 edition says the opposite, and therefore agrees with the MLBUM.

"A batter is awarded first base when four balls are counted. Runners forced to advance are also awarded their advance base. [7.04b] The ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. [6.08a] [7.04b] However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun first base, provided he returns immediately to the base."

What year J/R are you quoting from?

[mcrowder]

Aren't we missing something here? CR-to-be was in the dugout, and physically assisted BR while BR was still a live runner during a live ball. "Prevented him from entering the dugout, as they bumped". Sounds pretty much like physically assisting too. I have this BR out.