Strike Pitch - Do you still call it?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Offensive coaches ask only about a pitch they thought was a strike but I called a ball. "Where was that pitch [at]?" A well-trained catcher (training courtesy of me) motions "outside," even if he thought it was a stike and I missed it. There's always another pitch right around the corner.

Carl, you need to hire me as your proof-reader. Defensive coaches will ask, not the offensive coaches.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

I don't agree with Rich very often; he's management, I was always labor. But....

Rich Garcia's comment describing the strike zone is one of umpiring's classic statements: "A strike is where I call it and they don't b!tch!" Paste that on the back of your catcher's helmet, follow it religiously, and watch your evaluations climb.

...SNIP...

I was pleased with this thread: Most of the posters recognized that there is no magical zone, that it takes two (a pitcher and a catcher) to create a strike. Ten years ago, Rich and I might have been alone.

We've come a long way, Baby.

Management? Heck, I'm a grunt. I've never managed anyone.

I've only worked 9 games so far this season. Because of a foul ball to a plate shoe that bent the plate (new ones arrived late Friday afternoon), I spent the last week working the bases in single games, so I got to watch a lot of strike zones. 7 college games, 2 HS games so far. The observations are mine alone, but certainly apply to when I work the plate, too. I have worked 2 college plates this year and so far, so good.

(1) Most college pitchers can throw darts at the hollow of the knee. You'd better be prepared to call that a strike when the catcher sticks it. It's the bread and butter pitch and missing that was the biggest cause of *****ing I saw this past week. Timing, timing, timing.

(2) Catchers know when they cost their pitchers strikes. I had a catcher flub a borderline curve ball and I called it a ball. The coach yelled -- at the catcher. The pitcher glared -- at the catcher. The catcher apologized to both.

(3) Pitchers, to a degree, need to hit their spots. I had a catcher set up 3 inches outside on an 0-2 count and the pitch made the catcher dive back over the inside corner to catch the ball. I'm lucky I didn't get drilled. If I call that a strike, I may as well sign up for nothing but freshman and JV HS games (Carl's area is more competitive for umpires as no matter how bad I am, I'd never be relegated to 10u, although the MILF ratio is higher in those games).

(4) Use the strike zone. I've started calling the top of the strike zone as written and nobody has said a word. If they do in a college game, I'll say, "That's what the NCAA wants." In a HS game, I don't have to worry as they're just happy for consistency.

My new Spot-Bilt High Tops are here and I'm ready for my DH tonight. Time to quit stealing (although since my partners last week were all regular partners, I will make it up to them at some point this year).

[Justme]

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

[LMan]

This is level-dependent, but generally

1. agree, if you mean that F1 'stuck' F2's glove right where he held it.
2. agree
3. agree, depending on how much 'lurch' F2 had to do and how much corner it caught
4. how far inside/outside? 'slightly?'

[RPatrino]

[QUOTE=Justme]So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

What does chest high mean? If the pitch is a curve ball and it's caught at strike level, which I presume is somewhere around the knees, then possibly the curve never hit the zone in the first place. This is one of those "had to be there" situations and is very hard to answer. A curve that starts very high and ends up caught in the zone is not a strike.


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

I would not call this a strike, you would start a chirp fest. Your credibility and game management would sink faster than submarine with a screen door.


3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Where did the F2 initially set up?


4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

The inside corner is easy to call, if you are lined up with your nose on the inside corner and you aren't flinching or bailing out. If the ball would have hit you in the nose, then its a strike. Outside is a different story, you don't really have a physical reference. So, if the pitch looks like a strike, and the catcher catches it like a strike, I have a strike.

Bob P.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Justme

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

I don't think its that simple, the key is to be consistent. The thing most coaches forget is that the zone changes for each batter.

Especially in HS, one guy is 5'3" and the next is 6'5".

1) As far as the curve you talked in #1 it depends to me where the hands are. I make the pitch cross below the hands. I've been trying to work on calling a higher zone and its hard since for years I have just not called the high strike.

2) If F2 drops the ball its not going to be a strike very often. If its a nice 12-6 curve ball and F2 catches it its a strike. The little slider probably not a strike.

3) That's a ball - and coaches won't say a word.

4) Depends on where he set up. If its a little off the plate strike. If he's a lot off the plate ball. (Coach will usually ask f2 was that outside etc., and F2 will agree)

Thanks
David

[DG]

Originally Posted by Justme

So is it the majority opinion here that IF:

1. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around chest high but ends up being caught by F2 at strike level (it looks like a strike where caught) it should be called a strike?

Agree []
Disagree []


2. A curve ball (or other pitch) crosses the plate around knee high but is caught below F2's knees or even in the dirt should be called a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

3. A pitch crosses the outside corner of the plate but F2 has to reach across his body to make the catch, giving the appearance that the pitch missed, you call it a ball?

Agree []
Disagree []

4. F2 (left-handed, RH batter) sets up slightly inside. The pitch comes inside (looks like a strike to the coaches from their side view) but because F2 didn't have to move his mitt you call it a strike? Same with the outside pitch?

Agree []
Disagree []

1. Curves balls don't drop as much as some think in the 2-3 feet from the plate to the catcher's mitt. If the catcher sticks it smack dab in the middle of the strike zone, it was at least a high strike when it crossed the plate. STRIKE.
2. Catcher leans over to catch one, or catches palm up, or looks the least been clumsey catching a low one. BALL.
3. BALL
4. I can't relate to pitches caught by LH catchers. I don't know what I would do. I would probably have my worst night unless the pitcher was real good.

Number 5 you didn't mention:

Fastball comes screaming in at the hollow beneath the knee, and catcher sticks it solid (a must), you can take that pitch if you want, but I will call it every time. I just love that pitch.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3.

The catcher is, no matter what the rulebook says, a part of what makes the pitch a strike.

Sets up outside and dives back across the inside corner? Probably a ball, too, unless I need a strike in that situation.

Rich you are exactly correct. Its easy to tell the difference between the varsity umpire and the non-varsity in the way they handle these type of pitches.

Now for kids (LL etc., ) call a strike whenever you can get one and be glad for it, but for our first year umpire asking the question, I'm assuming he's talking about HS or up baseball.

If the catcher is dropping to block a pitch, there's no way its going to be a strike even if its a 12-6 hook which few players know how to throw anymore.

If F2 sets up outside and dives inside, you will never get any grief from a coach or fan if you call it a ball. Its its right down the middle and he reaches you might get away with it.

Generally on a questionable call that hits the dirt or F2 reaches for it, the coach will tell the catcher, "if you catch it right its a strike"

If the coach don't know the difference then you know what type of baseball you are dealing with.

Thanks
David

[LakeErieUmp]

I understand your perspectives, but I am really troubled by the idea of calling a STRIKE a ball to "speed the game up" (as I was bothered in a previous post to hear an umpire say to call a pitch a foot outside the plate a strike to "make the batter swing")
It is not our game to "speed up". It belongs to the players. If it takes three hours for a seven inning game then it takes three hours.
Our job as officials, whether baseball, hockey, or whatever other sports, is to make calls ACCURATELY and FAIRLY. Not to watch a pitch cross the plate as a strike but call it incorrectly "unless I need a strike" (UMPIRES never need strikes, PLAYERS do)
Just my two cents worth.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

I understand your perspectives, but I am really troubled by the idea of calling a STRIKE a ball to "speed the game up" (as I was bothered in a previous post to hear an umpire say to call a pitch a foot outside the plate a strike to "make the batter swing")
It is not our game to "speed up". It belongs to the players. If it takes three hours for a seven inning game then it takes three hours.
Our job as officials, whether baseball, hockey, or whatever other sports, is to make calls ACCURATELY and FAIRLY. Not to watch a pitch cross the plate as a strike but call it incorrectly "unless I need a strike" (UMPIRES never need strikes, PLAYERS do)
Just my two cents worth.

Gotta pretty much disagree with everything you said. Also, I must have missed the post about calling a pitch a foot outside a strike to make the batter swing. Please find this post and quote the source for us.

The game belongs to the players? Yeah, and a tie goes to the runner!

[D-Man]

...for the physics perfessers out there.

How much can a pitched ball break from the front of the plate to the catchers mitt, say, 2 feet away? Understood fact: the ball will be travelling at its slowest velocity so it would be breaking at its greatest magnitude. Is it possible for a pitch, thrown overhand at a speed of, say, 60 mph, that needs to be blocked by a mitt touching the dirt, to be a strike given an 18" high batter's knee?

I'm not saying don't get the knee pitch nor am I saying call it where he catches it. Simply accept that we have a bad look at the low line of the zone and the coaches view is better. If the ball can't get to the catcher's knee then it was never a strike.

D

[Rich]

Originally Posted by D-Man

...for the physics perfessers out there.

How much can a pitched ball break from the front of the plate to the catchers mitt, say, 2 feet away? Understood fact: the ball will be travelling at its slowest velocity so it would be breaking at its greatest magnitude. Is it possible for a pitch, thrown overhand at a speed of, say, 60 mph, that needs to be blocked by a mitt touching the dirt, to be a strike given an 18" high batter's knee?

I'm not saying don't get the knee pitch nor am I saying call it where he catches it. Simply accept that we have a bad look at the low line of the zone and the coaches view is better. If the ball can't get to the catcher's knee then it was never a strike.

D

It's gotta be a strike THROUGH the zone which means it's gotta end up caught at or above the batter's knee for me to call it a strike. At any level. Anyone who calls pitches almost in the dirt strikes -- I guarantee your timing is a bit too quick and you're deciding on the pitch too early.

[DG]

The zone goes to the hollow beneath the knee, at least in OBR and NCAA, and I call it that way, if the catcher "sticks" the catch. If he is dropping to his knees it's a ball because a pitch at the hollow is easily catchable.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It's gotta be a strike THROUGH the zone which means it's gotta end up caught at or above the batter's knee for me to call it a strike. At any level. Anyone who calls pitches almost in the dirt strikes -- I guarantee your timing is a bit too quick and you're deciding on the pitch too early.

Rich,

Have you ever umpired a pitcher with a very sharp 12 to 6 curveball, such as the one Barry Zito throws when he is on? I sure have, Barry Zito. He had a wicked nasty breaking ball as a HS pitcher. The ball could break down through the bottom of the strike zone, above the knee, and land in the dirt in front of the catcher. The pitches were absolutely solid strikes, yet by where they were caught looked like they were low. With most pitchers, they would have been low and called balls, but you just couldn't do that with Zito.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

I understand your perspectives, but I am really troubled by the idea of calling a STRIKE a ball to "speed the game up" (as I was bothered in a previous post to hear an umpire say to call a pitch a foot outside the plate a strike to "make the batter swing")
It is not our game to "speed up". It belongs to the players. If it takes three hours for a seven inning game then it takes three hours.
Our job as officials, whether baseball, hockey, or whatever other sports, is to make calls ACCURATELY and FAIRLY. Not to watch a pitch cross the plate as a strike but call it incorrectly "unless I need a strike" (UMPIRES never need strikes, PLAYERS do)
Just my two cents worth.

You should be troubled, since your reading skills seem a bit degraded....no where in this thread does it say to call a pitch a foot outside the zone a strike to 'make anyone swing', and how does a ball in place of a strike 'speed the game up?' Would that not do the opposite?

A time-honored technique to exaggerate/embellish previous posts so as to oppose a viewpoint that doesn't really exist....