Dilemma - Dropped ball during rundown

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Two of my recent games...

R1 in rundown bewteen 1st and 2nd. Defensive player catches ball and forces the runner toward 2nd (okay so there's the first mistake). The defensive player carries the ball in his ungloved hand for at least 30 feet and then tags the runner in the back. I call an immediate out two steps before the runner reaches 2nd and make the appropriate signal. As the defensive player drops his hand with the ball, he hits something (his own leg?) and the ball drops to the ground. I let the out call stand and said that the dropped ball was a separate act from the tag. No questions from players or coaches but I hear a fan saying "But he dropped the ball."

R3 in run down between 3rd and home. Same defensive mistake - forcing the runner towards home. Again, the defensive player carries the ball 20 feet and tags the runner in the back two to three steps before homeplate. Again, I call an immediate out and begin the signal ... as the ball drops to the ground after touching the runner's back. I change my call and sell the safe call yelling "You dropped the ball. You dropped the ball!!!" Again, no questions from players or coaches and nothing but groans from the fans.

Is there a better mechanic for out and safe calls during a rundown? Should I be waiting longer - to wait would have meant that the runner would have reached their objective (2nd, or home in the last scenario) before I made my call. I really think the immediate call is needed during a rundown but I may be mistaken.

To make the immediate call before they reach the base surely helps sell the call. And to wait until after the runner has reached their objective will surely create some nay sayers that I got the call wrong (when they don't drop the ball).

Maybe it's just a damned if you do and damned if you don't? Comments? Suggestions? Proper mechanic?

[briancurtin]

all i really see is to make the call, and sell it, the instant you have figured out what your call will be. i wouldnt really say to wait longer, but just to pay very close attention to the situation and as soon as you can make the right call, make it.

[BigUmp56]

Tony:

Whether the ball is in the glove or the hand the fielder must show secure possesion through the tag. Any subsequent bobble or drop as a result of the tag dictates a safe call. You need to slow down and see the play all the way through. The J/R covers this pretty well.

"Catch" and "Tag" are similar concepts. A tag occurs when the ball is live and a fielder has the ball in his hand or glove (or both) and:

a) a base is touched by his person or
b) a runner is touched by any part of the glove/ball or hand/ball combination.

Such fielder must show complete control of the ball during and after the touch, and show this control by voluntarily releasing the ball. If, during or after the touch and before voluntary release has been shown, the ball is bobbled or dropped, it is not a tag.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown

I really think the immediate call is needed during a rundown but I may be mistaken.

Call the out when there's an out. The out "happens" (I don't mean that literally) sometime after the tag.

[David B]

Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Two of my recent games...

R1 in rundown bewteen 1st and 2nd. Defensive player catches ball and forces the runner toward 2nd (okay so there's the first mistake). The defensive player carries the ball in his ungloved hand for at least 30 feet and then tags the runner in the back. I call an immediate out two steps before the runner reaches 2nd and make the appropriate signal. As the defensive player drops his hand with the ball, he hits something (his own leg?) and the ball drops to the ground. I let the out call stand and said that the dropped ball was a separate act from the tag. No questions from players or coaches but I hear a fan saying "But he dropped the ball."

R3 in run down between 3rd and home. Same defensive mistake - forcing the runner towards home. Again, the defensive player carries the ball 20 feet and tags the runner in the back two to three steps before homeplate. Again, I call an immediate out and begin the signal ... as the ball drops to the ground after touching the runner's back. I change my call and sell the safe call yelling "You dropped the ball. You dropped the ball!!!" Again, no questions from players or coaches and nothing but groans from the fans.

Is there a better mechanic for out and safe calls during a rundown? Should I be waiting longer - to wait would have meant that the runner would have reached their objective (2nd, or home in the last scenario) before I made my call. I really think the immediate call is needed during a rundown but I may be mistaken.

To make the immediate call before they reach the base surely helps sell the call. And to wait until after the runner has reached their objective will surely create some nay sayers that I got the call wrong (when they don't drop the ball).

Maybe it's just a damned if you do and damned if you don't? Comments? Suggestions? Proper mechanic?

You make a good point, but I've found that being a little slow but being sure helps in the long run.

YOu made the right calls but the perception is what you are looking at. How does it look to the players, coaches, fans etc.,

I would suggest that if a player is running wait until he stops (same as on a catch type of play) and then make the appropriate call.

Thansk
David

[mcrowder]

If it helps with timing, point at the tag when you see it, and then make the call. This gives you the extra half-second you might need to see the subsequent drop, and if it is a drop, you're already pointing at it as if you saw it. Definitely slow down though by whatever means works for you. There is no risk in making this call just a bit late as opposed to making it just a bit early.

[C'monBlue]

Take as long as you need to make ONE call. Taking an extra half second will be looked on more favorably than making a call too prematurely and then having to change.

[Sal Giaco]

I got a great idea for timing...... how about PROPER USE OF EYES. It's amazing how some people describe it - "just wait a little longer, point at the play first, etc"

Timing is not just for behind the plate - it's also used on the bases for this exact reason. Once you determine a tag or if the ball beat the runner/runner beat the ball, then you shift your eyes/focus to the glove to determine firm and secure possession and voluntary release. If you use your eyes properly and look at BOTH aspects of the play, then you will likely make the correct call at the right time.

[Okblu]

This is what I do. I point, yell TAG to let everyone know that I saw the tag, and then continue to watch the play finish. No out or safe call is made until I'm sure that the play has ended. I've had no problem with players, coaches, or fans when I do this.

[mcrowder]

Not picking, but wondering why you vocalize TAG except in cases where there is doubt (like a swipetag). Pointing usually suffices. Your vocalization might be misleading to a fielder who tags and bobbles, but who then still has time to make another tag - your vocalization might lead them to think they don't have to, even if you've subsequently judged no possession and safe.

[big]

When something like this happens I put my right arm straight out pointing at the play. This starts the mechanic of making the call. I then take a half second to full second to make sure I got the call right. At this point I either make a fist & make the out call & signal or I'll extend my left arm straight out next to my right arm and make the safe call. Doing this lets everyone involved know you're making the call. This mechanic has yet to fail me & I've never had confusion on what I call.

I probably shouldn't say this but I learned this several years ago from one of my assigners who is a D1 ump and now working as a fill in doing AAA ball.

[Okblu]

MC I can see your point. Its just been something that I tried and it seemed to work. I've never had a problem with the situation that you typed. I've tried just pointing and it seems like this just works better. I've only been doing this a couple of years, so I'm still learning.

[Sal Giaco]

Guys,
Trust me when I say do NOT POINT - it looks real bad. The only time you could point is on a swipe tag OUT at first base where you would say "On the tag, he's out". And you only do that on a close tag play. You DON'T point on run down tags, (because it's obvious he was out on the tag - it's not a force), never point on a tag where the fielder drops the ball (regardless if safe or out) and NEVER point at a play when the tag was missed.

I don't mean to sound negative but you guys sound like a bunch of umpires from the 1950's that used to point at everything. Do you guys also use your thumbs when calling people out?

[big]

Originally Posted by Sal Giaco

I don't mean to sound negative but you guys sound like a bunch of umpires from the 1950's that used to point at everything. Do you guys also use your thumbs when calling people out?

Why don't you come to one of my games and hackle me & I'll show you how it's done!

[DG]

It ain't nothing till you call it. Only if there is a timing play going on is a quick call necessary.