Positions B and C

[David B]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

David,

How do you figure to be "just as close" from B on a steal of third? From C, I can tell when the runner is going. I peek over my right shoulder, as I was taught. I'm only going to get 3 or 4 steps at best, on an angle in and toward the line. But I end up about 20 feet from 3rd. From B, you are still only going to get a few steps, and be 50+ feet from the play. That isn't just as close.

I have never heard of the mechanic for 2nd base only in B. I have never seen anyone position themselves in B with 2nd base only.

There were a few umpires back around 1990 in my association who tried to get everybody to use B with runners at 1st and 2nd, and that went over like a lead balloon. That idea was quickly scrapped, and I haven't heard of it since.

I dont usually waste my time with such comments, but just thought this was strange.

You are in C, (where you can look over your right shoulder? and see the runner going), yet you can take three steps from there and be 20 ft. from third base??

Not possible!

That again states my point - there are so many umpires who think that I'm in C so I'm close to third!

You are further from third unless you are in Smitty land, in C position but to the right of the F6.

I'm done with this rediculous drivel.

Thanks
David

[ctblu40]

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents-

Personally, I think the NFHS Manual is terrible... there are many inconsistancies (what defines a 'Trouble Ball'), and some of the responsibilities are questionable at best (UIC taking calls at third with no runners on).
Lastly, the diagrams in the NFHS Manuel look like they were drawn in the dirt with a stick, then photoed and printed in the book.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents-

Personally, I think the NFHS Manual is terrible... there are many inconsistancies (what defines a 'Trouble Ball'), and some of the responsibilities are questionable at best (UIC taking calls at third with no runners on).
Lastly, the diagrams in the NFHS Manuel look like they were drawn in the dirt with a stick, then photoed and printed in the book.

....and this adds to this thread how?


FED-haters aren't exactly an endangered species around here.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David B

I dont usually waste my time with such comments, but just thought this was strange.

You are in C, (where you can look over your right shoulder? and see the runner going), yet you can take three steps from there and be 20 ft. from third base??

Not possible!

That again states my point - there are so many umpires who think that I'm in C so I'm close to third!

You are further from third unless you are in Smitty land, in C position but to the right of the F6.

I'm done with this rediculous drivel.

Thanks
David

First off buddy, it's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Second, it's not drivel. If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position. I don't care how long you've been doing it.

Third, don't talk to me like that. To borrow a line from Sal, this ain't my first rodeo either. Don't go around insulting people, it's not nice.

Fourth, My B and C are both lined up with the edges of the mound, just as I was taught right out of a pro school manual. I don't stay there to make my calls. I do this uncommon thing called hustling!!! So, no, I'm not out there in "Smitty Land," which if you are in B with 2nd only, I would consider you in.

Fifth, from C, I hustle at an angle in and toward the foul line as I've already stated. How do you figure I'm not closer to third? To say otherwise is incorrect. I may be off quite a bit with the 20 feet, okay? I'm terrible at estimating distance. That's why I can't putt worth a damn. Maybe I'm 30 feet from the play, I'm still much closer, with a superior look (angle and distance) at the play than anything you can come up with starting in B. I also probably take more than 3 or 4 steps (I did say that, not "3"), perhaps 5 or 6, I haven't really counted (Im too busy hustling), so that was probably not an accurate assessment on my part.

Sixth, I was taught (by several pro school grads from both Harry's and Joe Brinkman's) to glance over my right shoulder to see if the runner is going. If he starts, by the time the catcher catches the pitch, I can glance over my shoulder and see the runner. Usually I can hear the runner's footsteps behind me. I can also hear fielders say, "he's going!" So there are plenty of ways to know the runner is stealing 3rd without resorting to starting on the 1st base side of the diamond.

Seventh, please tell me in which umpire's manual you can find where they teach the mechanic to work in B with a runner at 2nd base only. I say it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position.

Personally, I make this call from the stands. I get to rest, chat with MILFs, and finish my hot dog.

My evals stink, but hey, playoffs are a big ole time-eater anyway

[David B]

Originally Posted by LMan

Personally, I make this call from the stands. I get to rest, chat with MILFs, and finish my hot dog.

My evals stink, but hey, playoffs are a big ole time-eater anyway

Now that's funny!

Thanks
David

[David B]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

First off buddy, it's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Second, it's not drivel. If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position. I don't care how long you've been doing it.

Third, don't talk to me like that. To borrow a line from Sal, this ain't my first rodeo either. Don't go around insulting people, it's not nice.

Fourth, My B and C are both lined up with the edges of the mound, just as I was taught right out of a pro school manual. I don't stay there to make my calls. I do this uncommon thing called hustling!!! So, no, I'm not out there in "Smitty Land," which if you are in B with 2nd only, I would consider you in.

Fifth, from C, I hustle at an angle in and toward the foul line as I've already stated. How do you figure I'm not closer to third? To say otherwise is incorrect. I may be off quite a bit with the 20 feet, okay? I'm terrible at estimating distance. That's why I can't putt worth a damn. Maybe I'm 30 feet from the play, I'm still much closer, with a superior look (angle and distance) at the play than anything you can come up with starting in B. I also probably take more than 3 or 4 steps (I did say that, not "3"), perhaps 5 or 6, I haven't really counted (Im too busy hustling), so that was probably not an accurate assessment on my part.

Sixth, I was taught (by several pro school grads from both Harry's and Joe Brinkman's) to glance over my right shoulder to see if the runner is going. If he starts, by the time the catcher catches the pitch, I can glance over my shoulder and see the runner. Usually I can hear the runner's footsteps behind me. I can also hear fielders say, "he's going!" So there are plenty of ways to know the runner is stealing 3rd without resorting to starting on the 1st base side of the diamond.

Seventh, please tell me in which umpire's manual you can find where they teach the mechanic to work in B with a runner at 2nd base only. I say it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

Its always interesting and entertaining to read how umpires throw in things like I was taught by ...... who happened to graduate from a pro school etc., )

When I went to school many moons ago they taught us what was accepted at the time but the bottom line was do what your association does.

I've been teaching to stay in B since 1990 and our group still does. Might be the only one in the country, but it works great and I don;t have to worry about angles etc.,

From B all its takes is a few quick steps and you have the perfect angle for any call at third.

I've read it from Carl that I believe he's advocating staying in B period, and I believe he included such in his Mechanics for the 20th century etc.,

I might be wrong, but I know what works and that's what matters the most. Now when I call with my college guys, they like me to change, but since I get the calls right they leave me alone.

Thanks
David

[SAump]

Yeah, I lost some good money at one of them CLINIQUE places. The clinicians kept insisting that I work the PRO-slot. I kept telling them I hated calling the outside pitch from the PRO-slot. I felt vulnerable to COACHES ridicule. They kept telling me I needed to lower my big fat *** and balance it with my big fat belly by leaning forward to get a better ANGLE. I kept telling them that I couldn't physically do that. It was worse than the scissors. They laughed and my kness are shot from trying. I love the vibrating tickle I feel when I contract and extend both knees now. Never felt it before the SLOT.

I took a shot in the cup and many to the left leg while in the slot. Thank GOD the 70-mph pitches were thrown by 15 year olds who were trying to imitate REAL pitchers. I had a partner who took an 80-mph shot to the cup too. He went down to the ground immediately. I don't think a steel cup would have helped him then. He did not appreciate the COACH who walked up and asked him if he was okay, either. I decided right then and there that I would never stand in the SLOT like a TOUGH GUY. I moved my fat *** and big belly behind the catcher's left shoulder. I stood a little higher and felt my knees praised GOD afterwards. From then on, there was never any thought of moving back to the slot.

I didn't know any better at the time because most PRO-umps do offer well-intentioned advice. But if anyone ever tells a NEWBIE to work the SLOT, I'll have a word or more to say about it. When I first started reading this website, I marveled how my positioning was being discussed all over the web as the GD stance. Well if that is who they want to give credit to after 100 years of baseball, I'm NOT going to disagree with the name. Things change over time and they change for a reason. With respect, who am I to argue? Papa C made the right call here too.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I have had the exact same conversation with both Jim Evans and Dave Yeast and they say just about exactly the same thing. Their thoughts, in my words are:

"We have developed umpire mechanics over many, many years. We have reviewed thousands of games and thousands of umpires.

"We have developed, modified and reviewed umpire mechanics for decades.

"We know what we are doing.

"We simply wish that umpires would use the mechanics that we request and not make up their own. The starting positions for BUs have been developed to help with the compromises necessary to cover the game.

"We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?"

Take what I say for what it is:

An umpire that claims he needs to start in "B" when official mechanics literature says to start in "C" to "get a better angle at the most likely play," simply isn't much of an umpire.

I can get to the exact position that that umpire claims he needs to start in "B" to get to (man is that a bad gammar) starting in the correct position of "C".

It is much like the umpire that says a base umpire working inside can't call the checked/unchecked swing. This is an umpire that either doesn't have enough guts to make a tough call or he doesn't understand the criteria of a checked/unchecked swing.

Same goes for starting from out of position.

It is lame.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Well, here's my opinion. When Nick Bremigan, Jim McKean, and Gerry Crawford created the current 3-man system, people like the ones you've guoted said: "Hell's wrong with them? We've been doing it this way for decades. We know what's best. They should just do what we've proved." The innovation: With runners on first and third, bring U3 into the infield so each half of a double play is called by a different umpire.

As late as the mid 80s, on ESPN I saw three-man crews in Florida positioning themselves this way: R1, R3: U3 in D, U1 in B. Now, anyone who would suggest that would be laughed at, just as the Umpire Schools laughed in 1973.

In 1988, I first suggested in Referee that the umpire belonged in B with R3, R3/R2, or R3/R2/R1. I've been practicing it every since. The outcome: I miss fewer plays, and coaches say: Hey, how'd you get so close to that play at first? I'm glad to see that in some states, this eminently sane positioning is catching on. I always knew it would. All that's required is for one or two powerful umpires in an association to try it out.

In the Childress library, there is a long article (Part II of Mechanics, 2000) that explains the geometry and dynamics involved.

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

You quoted someone as saying: "We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?" For "all"?

That's an amazing display of a closed mind.

Oh, those are the same guys who refuse to use my A, B, C designations and perfer: With a runner on first, move into the infield about 15-20 feet behind the rubber, with your right foot on a line drawn from the plate...."

Remember, the experts once thought the earth was flat. Edit comment: I have no idea what "throught" (my original word here) means. But Juulie Downs, one of my basketball writers, wrote about a "kerfuffle." In .12 seconds, Google found 1,050,000 mentions of that word on the world wide web. I was an ignorant of it as I was "throught."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Well, here's my opinion. When Nick Bremigan, Jim McKean, and Gerry Crawford created the current 3-man system, people like the ones you've guoted said: "Hell's wrong with them? We've been doing it this way for decades. We know what's best. They should just do what we've proved." The innovation: With runners on first and third, bring U3 into the infield so each half of a double play is called by a different umpire.

As late as the mid 80s, on ESPN I saw three-man crews in Florida positioning themselves this way: R1, R3: U3 in D, U1 in B. Now, anyone who would suggest that would be laughed at, just as the Umpire Schools laughed in 1973.

In 1988, I first suggested in Referee that the umpire belonged in B with R3, R3/R2, or R3/R2/R1. I've been practicing it every since. The outcome: I miss fewer plays, and coaches say: Hey, how'd you get so close to that play at first? I'm glad to see that in some states, this eminently sane positioning is catching on. I always knew it would. All that's required is for one or two powerful umpires in an association to try it out.

In the Childress library, there is a long article (Part II of Mechanics, 2000) that explains the geometry and dynamics involved.

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

You quoted someone as saying: "We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?" For "all"?

That's an amazing display of a closed mind.

Oh, those are the same guys who refuse to use my A, B, C designations and perfer: With a runner on first, move into the infield about 15-20 feet behind the rubber, with your right foot on a line drawn from the plate...."

Remember, the experts once throught the earth was flat.

I just found out for the first time this past weekend that the pro schools don't use A, B, C. I guess if they don't invent it, they don't use it.

[JRutledge]

Baseball is one of the easiest sport to navigate from an officiating standpoint and we have people that claim one way is so terrible than the other. My God, we are talking about standing in a certain place for a short period of time. How hard can it be? If you do not like where you stand, stand somewhere else. All I need to know as your partner is what you are going to cover and when. The NF mechanics are the very basic so that those that did not go to pro school and debate all the possibilities can happen on a baseball field. In Illinois we use mostly NF mechanics with some modifications. It is not that hard to adjust to or deal with. Half the time I do not know if I am using a "NF" mechanic or an "NCAA" mechanic. I stand where I am told and I hustle to where I need to be. After all where you start has little or nothing to do with where you will end up.

The responses on this topic just goes to show that baseball umpires have too much time on their hands and worry about things that really are not that serious to worry about.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I've umpired baseball for 20 years and also worked basketball and football. Baseball is by far the most difficult of the three to call, despite what Jeff tries to shove down our throats every now and then.

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

How many baseball games have you ever worked that lasted an hour? What level was this, T-Ball? Why make such a remark? - mick

I just got done working 3 games on Saturday, one-man mechanics, from 9 AM to after 5PM. I'm sunburned like a freakin' lobster, and could barely walk from my back/hip Saturday night. Now that's work.

Standing in one place? If that is how you umpire, I feel real sorry for the teams that get you. I hustle my butt off when I do baseball, or any other sport. I used to do 3 and 4 football games on a Saturday, working the flanks on Pop Warner games where all you do is sprint back and forth down the field on 90 yard touchdown plays all the live-long doo dah day.

I used to have the privledge of working one-man basketball from top-of-the-key to top-of-the-key. I did 3 games back-to-back-to-back twice a week for the top A-League in the SDSU Inter-Fraternity Rec League, where all the slam-dunkin' brothers played. That was also quite a workout.

Even after all that, I still say baseball is much harder. It's much harder to call 250 to 300 pitches a game than call some fouls or throw a penalty flag once in a while. Sheesh.

BTW, I do know Mr. Gregg. I've played some softball with the man. He is a great guy, and was a damn good umpire. Why you want to disparage him is beyond me.

War

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

Come on, Jeff. I know you're better than standing in one spot while you're working a baseball game aren't you?


Tim.

[SAump]

"SAump is another troll from Officials Unlimited, Brian, good catch there."

Honestlty, I have never had sex with any women from OU, or any MILF from eteamz. This is the ONE baseball site I choose because I think it is the best (maybe FED is close, , maybe NOT).

My premise is entirely over safety concerns. Take the steroids and work the slot. Buy lots of ICE too for those bruises. I know you want to move up. You can have my ticket too. There is no overnight magic pill. Hustle, knowledge and determination only get you so FAR before reality brings you back to earth. The PRO, ML and NCAA boyz don't want you there. There aren't enuf SPOTS and those that are available don't PAY like your DAY job. Sorry to BUST your bubble. Please get your college certificate and find a good slot in the job market.

Moderator, I think something may have spun out of control here. I leave you the last DANCE. I will now retire from this thread.