Controversy at WBC - USA vs Japan

[bdub712]

From what I have seen, and I did not see it live, but through replay it shows the runner starting his move but that he did not leave the base until the left fielder made a play on the ball. If the UIC was in the position he was at the time R3 crossed the plate, then I would assume that once he saw the catch and then glanced at the runner and saw him moving then he assumed the runner left early. To make the matter worse, the wrong umpire was asked to appeal the play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by btman

I agree, those adjustable hats are right in there with Pearl Harbor and the World Trade Center attacks.

Those field jackets !! Aw shmalz. They look like schmitzafa!

(rolling eyes until whites show)

Why is this allowed? This troll making fun of my post is okay with you guys? But I stand up for myself, and I get deleted? Like the idiot rats say, call it both ways!

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Pete,
You're right, U2 (Knight) messed up and stepped in when he shouldn't have. But why make matter's worse and overturn the call? Now instead of a blown mechanic and little, if any controversy, you have a blown mechanic AND and blown call AND a whole lot of controversy.

It's hard enought as umpires to fight public perception and scrutiny, but Davidson basically cut his own throat and made it worse for everyone.

I need no remind everyone of the 'get the call right' theory of umpiring. Davidson knows what it is like to have to make the toughest calls in the game. We had a war of words over how impossible it is for amateur umpires to consider working AAA baseball. Now, the hordes are swarming on a man who works AAA and in the Show. My, my...

Hindsight is twenty-twenty. I'm fairly certain that if any of our games were scrutinized in slow motion and split screens, we'd look pretty bad.

If Davidson truly believed that he had the call, it was his to make. Don't give me any of that 'influenced by Buck' nonsense either. He HAS to wait for the appeal and of course Buck is going to be hot. Watch the replay in real time speed. Check the reaction of the team on the bench, they all jumped up and started pointing. They must have witnessed something too.

That was a difficult call to make. Like the balk in the CWS Supers, it takes incredible courage to do what you think is correct. He did not cut his throat on that call. He proved that he has the stones to take the heat on a tough call. The Japanese showed amazing restraint but they always do. Oh is a classy skipper, even when angry.

Big games are usually decided by mistakes. Sometimes the players make them while others are determined by the umpire. Davidson must have been convinced that his call was correct and that is all that matters. He does not have the luxury of instant replay.

[Sal Giaco]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Check the reaction of the team on the bench, they all jumped up and started pointing. They must have witnessed something too.

If I make calls, especially on appeal plays, based on how the coaches & players react, I would get about 90% of them WRONG. They always go apesh!t to try and influence the call.

He proved that he has the stones to take the heat on a tough call.

The difference between the CWS call and Davidson's call is that the CWS call was actually correct. Davidson's actually reversed a correct call to an INCORRECT call.

[GarthB]

I hope the "When one umpire is 100% convinced he saw something the other umpire didn't see he shouldn't wait to be asked to offer help" crowd was watching this.

Just because one umpire thinks he's right and his parnter is wrong, doesn't mean he's right and his partner is wrong.

Yep, it should have been Davidson's call to begin with, but like Jim Evans says, as soon as he let the other umpire make the call, it wasn't his anymore.

Davidson is trying to work back into the majors and wants to be noticed. Well, he got noticed.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 14th, 2006 at 02:43 AM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by btman

how ya know this? talk to Davidson and get that confirmwed in writing? your specualtion? plain BS?

My mistake. I should have said Davidson would be pleased as punch to remain in the minors after being a major leauger. He's hoping no one notices his work so he can avoid a promotion.

Is that better? Gawd.

[mattmets]

Originally posted by GarthB

My mistake. I should have said Davidson would be pleased as punch to remain in the minors after being a major leauger. He's hoping no one notices his work so he can avoid a promotion.

Is that better? Gawd. [/B]

Actually, I heard he wanted to be released to make room for some new guy. Maybe my source was wrong

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

It's late and I'm bored, so here's my last salvo of the night.

Sal, shame on you for twisting my words like that. I simply pointed out that another camera angle showed the reaction of the USA bench. When they all leapt up and started yelling, it was what some of us call a tell. I'm sure that Davidson doesn't base his calls off of every reaction, but veteran umpires do make calls based on tells. Please don't tell me that you don't look for a double clutch tag or a batter that winces in pain when you can't tell if the ball hit him or the bat. The simple fact of the matter is that Davidson blew the call based on your keen sense of instant replay. It was his call to make and when the appeal was made, Knight kicked it. He should not have made the call and it fell to Davidson to do what he thought was correct. Hindsight is 20/20 folks. I don't believe that any of you wouldn't have called it any differently, given those circumstances. The pressure is incredible and the scrutiny unrelenting. He made that call based on what he saw. Maybe it was incorrect after looking at it in slow motion, but at real time speed, the runner flinched on his front foot and it looked like he left early.

As for those who think that Davidson is doing something to get noticed, hahahahahaha! He made an incredibly difficult call that he justified after the game. He is already a fill-in and gets plent of action in the Show. While he may yearn for the chance to dance again, he would be unwise to go about it as you suggest.

Team USA got beat by Canada and Korea. It took a controversial call to give them a chance against Japan. If there was a conspiracy theory at works, the odds makers wouldn't have put Venezuela and the Dominican Republic ahead of the USA. I need a drink.

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
... reaction of the USA bench. When they all leapt up and started yelling, it was what some of us call a cue. Please don't tell me that you don't look for a double clutch tag or a batter that winces in pain when you can't tell if the ball hit him or the bat.

Those "cues" are not apple to apple comparisons.

Maybe it was incorrect after looking at it in slow motion, but at real time speed, the runner flinched on his front foot and it looked like he left early.

Maybe if he would of been in the correct position (first base line extended) to line up the tag rather than third base line extended (w/ hands on knees set?), maybe he would of seen that his foot was still on the bag at the time of the catch.

I do agree with you that Davidson is NOT out to be "seen" since the new WUA contract already has him, along with Hallion and Hickox as automatically getting the next 3 MLBU jobs. Moreover, he has 18 years in the game, I think his experience speaks for itself.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh, I just can't wait for Windy to get a load of you!!!

He's gonna rip you a new one, boy!!!

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Steve,

I would, but I'm quite certain that he needs a translator more than the Japanese manager.

The fact that in real time that call is a ***** to make is compounded by the skill of the players executing it and the pressure of the game. Arguing about which angle gives you the better approach is moot; he lined it up and even squatted to see the catch/tag. Maybe it didn't look like the text book, but few professionals ever make calls exactly like the PBUC manual states. He must have thought that it was a pretty good angle considering his actions. We've witnessed unorthodox mechanics from most pros. Plate calls are made from both sides of the dish. Even strike outs are susceptible to the varied action of the arbiter (Edmonds).

None of you can say that you would have called it any differently and be taken seriously. If you are better than Davidson, you would have been noticed by now and would be working those games! I may or may not like his call, but the temerity he displayed befuddles those who can't accept the MLB mechanic he used. He was the crew chief and over ruled his partner's blunder. Now, you may think that the replay showed otherwise, but he is charged with getting the call right to the best of his ability. It was his call to make and Knight foolishly offered his opinion, rather than wait for the correct umpire to call it. Knight later acknowledged that he erred in ruling on the initial appeal.

What was Davidson supposed to do? He was convinced the runner left early and was asked to rectify the situation. It never fails to amaze me how many young umpires think they know more than the guys actually doing the job. When an umpire kicks a call, he is usually called incompetent. Headlines are screaming that he is a homer. Bob Davidson could umpire circles around anyone on this board. Where are his AMLU brethren now? They seemed to take great glee in letting this board know how difficult it is to work AAA baseball. Now they are nowhere to be seen - that's the type of support many will give them when they walk out.

If someone can translate the previous poster's tirade, I'd be glad to address those points individually. Until then, they appear to be similar to one thomasbwhite's crude rantings. It's time for an Ambien.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Mar 15th, 2006 at 05:00 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

He was the crew chief and over ruled his partner's blunder. Now, you may think that the replay showed otherwise, but he is charged with getting the call right to the best of his ability.

Windy....serious question....

You went on a lengthy tirade(s) in the past re: getting the call right. Here's a case where Davidson's partner may have blundered in making the call, but his partner still had the right call after he did make it. Making the right call doesn't really seem like a "blunder" to me. Davidson then reversed the right call into an incorrect call. Now, that's seems completely at odds to me somehow with the concept of "getting the call right".

What am I missing?

Is it possible to actually get a call like this "right" without using replay?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

I may or may not like his call, but the temerity he displayed befuddles those who can't accept the MLB mechanic he used. He was the crew chief and over ruled his partner's blunder. Now, you may think that the replay showed otherwise, but he is charged with getting the call right to the best of his ability. It was his call to make and Knight foolishly offered his opinion, rather than wait for the correct umpire to call it. Knight later acknowledged that he erred in ruling on the initial appeal.

First his partner did NOT Blunder. He demonstrated BAD mechanics but his call was CORRECT. The MAIN POINT IMO, (read Garth's response) is that we have had many a Debate on "Getting the Call Right" AT ALL COST and the aforementioned play CLEARLY demonstrats that umpires need to make their OWN Calls PERIOD, RIGHT or WRONG.

Whose to say one umpire had a better view of the play than another, yet we have had responses concerning getting the call right which stated otherwise and they would interject to get the call right.

It might be Outdated, but I still follow Papa C's infamous FAB V of when calls can be changed. Papa C posted it about 4-5 yrs ago and when he posted it, many of a debate followed, but more often then not as we have seen STICK to your OWN calls and Learn.

Knight later acknowledged that he erred in ruling on the initial appeal.

You are not that naive are you? Of Course Knight is going to back his partner. You remember last years ACLS on the imfamous dropped not dropped third strike in the Angels/White-Sox series. The Crew Chief backed the call. What do you think he was going to say so your statement about Knight is absurd. He wouldn't say anything different.

Bottom Line: The theme of the thread IMO was in response to the many threads we have had on those in favor of "Getting the call Right" which has been talked about ad nausem many a time in this Forum.

Pete Booth

[kylejt]

I swear I had this exact same call Monday night.

Kids game, working two man. Bases loaded, one out, and fly ball to F8. Throw comes to the plate off-line, and everyone and their grandmother is yelling to throw it third. I had it all the way, reared back and punched him out just as my BU signals safe. Yikes! We got together, got it right, and then I had to explain it to the O manager. What are the odds?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by bobbybanaduck
Where are his AMLU brothers now? You ask that like you expect them to show up and defend him against ridiculous posts on here. The ones that were on here posting have probably read what has been said and laughed as I have.

Davidson, Hallion, and Hickox WILL BE the next full time MLB guys. This call will have no bearing on that. If you want to bash sombody, bash the 2nd base umpire that made the original call. He had no business making it, and anyone familiar with a 4 man system knows that. Davidson, as the crew chief and the guy that was supposed to make the call, did what he had to do.

As far as the AMLU guys taking "glee" in saying that AAA is difficult to work...I highly doubt it. I've seen what they have posted, I've gotten the letter they are sending out. They are simply trying to inform their amateur "brethren" of what is going on. They haven't once said, "Don't work."

Since I'm not an AMLU member, I have no problem taking glee in saying it. It is difficult. I did it. If you haven't been in the game, then you will get eaten alive at the AAA level, and most likely in AA, too. You may sneak through a couple of nights unnoticed, but it will catch up to you.

I've been contacted, and I'm not working. Why would I? I was in their shoes, and I hope they succeed in what they are trying to get done.

Why would anyone take those games? What's in it for you? Seriously...what could possibly be in it for you? Please enlighten me.

Perhaps I'm not as good as Balkin' Bob. But my mechanics are much better. My timing is much better. My positioning on tag-ups at 3B are definitely better (as we have seen that his are horse****). My appearance is more professional than his. His stance and strike call look Smittyish at best. He looks like many of the umpires in my former association. I am certainly not a MLB jock-sniffer that thinks these guys can do no wrong. If I see an area to critique, I will without apology. You don't have to be a surgeon to tell a botched operation when you see it.

Davidson has way more experience than any of us have. But I know plenty of folks who have been doing jobs for years, but are still not that good at it, and have not improved their skill over those years. This extends to umpires as well. I don't understand how Bob got his job back, and I don't really care. As far as Tom Hallion and Ed Hickox, I feel they do deserve to be up there, and are by far superior to Davidson.