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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 07:38pm
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I have a question about balls lodging in a catcher or umpire's uniform/gear under NFHS rules. There was some discussion at our local meeting the other night.

Page 37: Dead Ball Table "16. A pitch or thrown ball from pitcher's plate...lodges in umpire's or catcher's equipment. Award: All runners one base"

Page 37: "12. Fair ball...lodges in player's uniform or equipment. Award: All runners two bases from TOP"

Rule 8-3-3 c) says that all runners awarded two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball lodges in catcher or umpire's gear. d) says one base if a pitch (or throw from pitching plate)

There was a "Discussion" at our meeting by those who said it was runners only advance if forced on lodged pitch because of batter becoming a runner on ball four or strike 3. They said then and only then would runners advance (if they were forced). Am I missing something here?

8-3-3 in the casebook, (I could not find a rule reference in the rules book) seems to imply that if lodged in a player's shirt, for example, the runners do not move up unless advanced and the runner gets the base they were going to (umpire's judgment)? Under OBR, would this be to the umpire's judgment and award bases to nullify the dead ball? Thanks....
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 08:11pm
DG DG is offline
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Rule of thumb, one from the rubber, two from the field.
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 08:53pm
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"There was a "Discussion" at our meeting by those who said it was runners only advance if forced on lodged pitch because of batter becoming a runner on ball four or strike 3. They said then and only then would runners advance (if they were forced). Am I missing something here?"

You didn't miss anything, they did. The rule doesn't state that the runners advance only IF the runners were forced to advance. It's treated like a throw that goes into dead-ball territory. They might be mixing it up with awarding bases on an obstruction, ask them to provide you with the rule that supports their opinion.
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 09:31pm
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Ive thought about it. There is a TON of confusion in our association.

Pitched Ball lodges in catcher's/umpire's gear/uniform: One base from TOP.

Fair batted or thrown ball lodges in catcher's/umpire's gear/uniform or defensive player's uniform: Two bases from TOP (batted) or time of dead ball (throw).

Fair batted (it could happen I guess) or thrown ball lodges in offensive player's uniform (Casebook plays 8-3-3): Runner awarded base going to, other runners return to bases occupied at time of dead ball unless forced to advance.

Is any of this wrong? Thanks.
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 09:35pm
DG DG is offline
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"There was a "Discussion" at our meeting by those who said it was runners only advance if forced on lodged pitch because of batter becoming a runner on ball four or strike 3. They said then and only then would runners advance (if they were forced). Am I missing something here?"

Why would runners be forced to advance on strike 3?

On a lodged ball the ball is dead and all runners advance one base. Lodged includes lodging in catcher or umpire equipment, or the chain link fence at the backstop.
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 09:38pm
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They said the ball would just be dead in all instances. If it was a 2-0 count for example and the pitch was a ball, the count would be 3-0 and no runners would advance on the bases. However, if it was 1-2 and the pitch was a strike but uncaught and then lodged in the catcher's chest protector, the batter would be awarded 1B and other runners would stay put unless forced to advance. I was sitting there thinking "what is going on?"

[Edited by mrm21711 on Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:41 PM]
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 09:56pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrm21711
They said the ball would just be dead in all instances. If it was a 2-0 count for example and the pitch was a ball, the count would be 3-0 and no runners would advance on the bases. However, if it was 1-2 and the pitch was a strike but uncaught and then lodged in the catcher's chest protector, the batter would be awarded 1B and other runners would stay put unless forced to advance. I was sitting there thinking "what is going on?"

[Edited by mrm21711 on Feb 14th, 2006 at 09:41 PM]
The ball is dead when lodged. On 2-0 count runners advance one base, batter stays for next pitch since he is not a runner yet. On uncaught strike on 1-2 pitch batter is now a batter-runner who can try for 1b (unless 1b is occupied with less than 2 outs), but he can't since the ball is dead, so he is awarded 1b and all other runners advance one base. If 1b is occupied and less than 2 outs, batter is out and all runners advance one base. Moral for the defense (ie catcher), wear equipment tight so balls can't get lodged.
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 10:35pm
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1 base if a thrown ball or pitch from F1 (on the rubber).

2 bases on a thrown (other than F1 from the rubber) or batted ball per 8.3.3c
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Old Tue Feb 14, 2006, 10:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrm21711
Ive thought about it. There is a TON of confusion in our association.

Pitched Ball lodges in catcher's/umpire's gear/uniform: One base from TOP.

Fair batted or thrown ball lodges in catcher's/umpire's gear/uniform or defensive player's uniform: Two bases from TOP (batted) or time of dead ball (throw).

Fair batted (it could happen I guess) or thrown ball lodges in offensive player's uniform (Casebook plays 8-3-3): Runner awarded base going to, other runners return to bases occupied at time of dead ball unless forced to advance.

Is any of this wrong? Thanks.
You've got it. End-o-discussion.

Slap a rule book in front of their faces and say "you're wrong" haha
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Old Wed Feb 15, 2006, 07:55am
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The difference is if say a the play is in a BR going to first and the ball becomes lodged in the offensive players uniform, the ball is dead and the BR gets 1st base and the other runners advance 1 base if forced. (8-3-3f).

If it is on a pickoff of first and the ball gets lodged in his uniform, he only gets to stay at first.

All these are also in that nice little flyer that should have come out with your packets.
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Old Wed Feb 15, 2006, 09:19am
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrm21711
I have a question about balls lodging in a catcher or umpire's uniform/gear under NFHS rules. There was some discussion at our local meeting the other night.

Page 37: Dead Ball Table "16. A pitch or thrown ball from pitcher's plate...lodges in umpire's or catcher's equipment. Award: All runners one base"

Page 37: "12. Fair ball...lodges in player's uniform or equipment. Award: All runners two bases from TOP"

Rule 8-3-3 c) says that all runners awarded two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball lodges in catcher or umpire's gear. d) says one base if a pitch (or throw from pitching plate)

There was a "Discussion" at our meeting by those who said it was runners only advance if forced on lodged pitch because of batter becoming a runner on ball four or strike 3. They said then and only then would runners advance (if they were forced). Am I missing something here?

8-3-3 in the casebook, (I could not find a rule reference in the rules book) seems to imply that if lodged in a player's shirt, for example, the runners do not move up unless advanced and the runner gets the base they were going to (umpire's judgment)? Under OBR, would this be to the umpire's judgment and award bases to nullify the dead ball? Thanks....
The confusion seems to be over the new rule awarding some bases when the ball becomes lodged in an *OFFENSIVE* player's uniform. The rules regarding a ball becoming lidged in a *DEFENSIVE* player's uniform (or in the umpire's uniform) haven't changed. Also, the FED didn't change the dead ball table to allow for this new rule.

If the ball becomes lodged in an OFFENSIVE player's uniform, runners advance if they were advancing on the play. Runners can also be "forced" to advance if the ball becomes lodged in the BR's uniform.

If the ball becomes lodged in a DEFENSIVE player's uniform, all runners advance one or two bases, wheher they were trying to advance and whether they were forced.
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Old Wed Feb 15, 2006, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Why would runners be forced to advance on strike 3?
They would be forced if there were 2 outs.
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Old Wed Feb 15, 2006, 08:49pm
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My rules interpreter got back to me and gave the following example:

If the ball becomes lodged in the catchers equipment(example batter gets third strike) he starts down to first, there are runners on 2nd and 3rd. The ball is dead the batter-runner is awarded first. The other runners do NOT move because they are not forced to move. If the bases would have been loaded during the ball lodging in the catcher's equipment' then ALL the runners would have advanced, on the dead ball.

I have no idea where this ruling is coming from.
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Old Wed Feb 15, 2006, 09:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrm21711
My rules interpreter got back to me and gave the following example:

If the ball becomes lodged in the catchers equipment(example batter gets third strike) he starts down to first, there are runners on 2nd and 3rd. The ball is dead the batter-runner is awarded first. The other runners do NOT move because they are not forced to move. If the bases would have been loaded during the ball lodging in the catcher's equipment' then ALL the runners would have advanced, on the dead ball.

I have no idea where this ruling is coming from.
I think it's OBR... although i could be mistaken
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Old Thu Feb 16, 2006, 12:11am
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Quote:
Originally posted by largeone59
Quote:
Originally posted by mrm21711
My rules interpreter got back to me and gave the following example:

If the ball becomes lodged in the catchers equipment(example batter gets third strike) he starts down to first, there are runners on 2nd and 3rd. The ball is dead the batter-runner is awarded first. The other runners do NOT move because they are not forced to move. If the bases would have been loaded during the ball lodging in the catcher's equipment' then ALL the runners would have advanced, on the dead ball.

I have no idea where this ruling is coming from.
I think it's OBR... although i could be mistaken
Not OBR.

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when_

g) A pitched ball lodges in the umpire's or catcher's mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, runners advance one base;

If a foul tip hits the umpire and is caught by a fielder on the rebound, the ball is "dead" and the batsman cannot be called out. The same shall apply where such foul tip lodges in the umpire's mask or other paraphernalia. If a third strike (not a foul tip) passes the catcher and hits an umpire, the ball is in play. If such ball rebounds and is caught by a fielder before it touches the ground, the batsman is not out on such a catch, but the ball remains in play and the batsman may be retired at first base, or touched with the ball for the out. If a pitched ball lodges in the umpire's or catcher's mask or paraphernalia, and remains out of play, on the third strike or fourth ball, then the batter is entitled to first base and all runners advance one base. If the count on the batter is less than three balls, runners advance one base.
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