Roder - Evans: Difference of Opinion - Page 2

Carl Childress · #16 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaliix
In a related (but admittedly rarer) play, what would you call here?:

Ground ball to F3, who throws to F1 covering 1B. F1 catches F3's throw but stumbles before he reaches 1B. As he is trying to regain his balance, he sticks his foot out and kicks the bag, takes another stumble step, and falls to the ground and the ball comes out. I admit I don't know how to call this one.

If you subscribe to the instantenous out on a tag of a base, then the answer is: He's out.

The fact he lost the ball when he hit the ground is irrelevant since what he did was "glove" a ball. You cannot "catch" a thrown ball.

D-Man · #17 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 12:29pm

That's the separation I was talking about.

Instead of runners and bases, think of them as items you need to tag and if you need to tag them with the secuerly held ball, then the time frame is the same.

If the ball pops out as a result of tagging the object, you can't have an out. Freaky things like "what if the fielder tage the base with his glove at the same time the runner steps on his glove and the ball pops out?" require the umpire's judgement.

D

RPatrino · #18 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:10pm

How can you not subscribe to the "instant" out in this situation? Do we need to start using the "voluntary release" test on plays at first then?

While I find great value in J/R from a theorectical perspective, I place greater weight in the JEA from a practical, ease of use perspective.

Evans just makes more sense.

Bob

Kaliix · #19 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:44pm

Sadly Carl, even though I own a 2005 BRD, I still went to the JEA and the J/R to pull the quotes.

Little did I realize that the relevant quotes would be right there in the BRD.

Silly me...

Quote:

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Davies
Tag Play. GB fielded and thrown to F3. F3's foot on the bag. Ball caught. F3 immediately plowed into by B-R. Ball comes out and hits the dirt.

Evans, in his Annotated 1993,contended that B-R was still out. Roder, 2005, says that B-R will be Safe. This play is assuming no Interference or Obstruction, so please don't bring that into the equation.

I would think that both of these sources are considered Authoritative. Jimmy, because of his past affiliation with MLB and his current status as the Boss of his Academy. Roder because of his widespread reference to the MLB Umpire Manual and a former Brinkman Instructor and Minor League Umpire.

Although I am a Jimmy disciple, I agree with Roder's take on this play.

If I have to post specifics of their opinions word for word, I will. I just don't feel like it right now.

Dave
******

Fitzpatrick of PBUC agrees with Evans - and me. Tag of a base is NOT the same as tag of a runner.
This is one of the times when the NHFS is out in front. (2-24-2)

See BRD section 483 for the full story.

mcrowder · #20 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 03:08pm

If the requirement for an out includes the touching of some object while in possession of the ball, the instant that object is touched while the player is in possession of the ball, you have an out. (This applies to any instance of getting an out by touching a base with anything other than the ball or a gloved ball).

If the requirement for an out includes the touching of some object (ie the runner or a base) with the ball itself or a gloved ball, and the ball becomes dislodged because of the contact between that object and the ball or the gloved ball, you don't have an out (this applies to any tag (whether a force play or not) and any instance where a fielder is attempting to touch a base with the ball or gloved ball).

Seems wordy, but it's easy to interpret and easy to back up via rule.

umpduck11 · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RPatrino

While I find great value in J/R from a theorectical perspective, I place greater weight in the JEA from a practical, ease of use perspective.

Evans just makes more sense.

Bob

The unfortunate part of your post is
that most of us don't know because the
J/R is easy to aquire. Lots of us (obviously),
would love to own a copy of JEA.

DG · #22 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 16, 2006, 08:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Davies

Fitzpatrick of PBUC agrees with Evans - and me. Tag of a base is NOT the same as tag of a runner.
This is one of the times when the NHFS is out in front. (2-24-2)

See BRD section 483 for the full story.

But Evans said "Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession." This was under the definition for TAG, which included touching a base while holding the ball, or touching a runner with the ball or glove holding the ball.

greymule · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 12:29pm

How can one obtain a JEA? (And what do the letters stand for?)

Carl Childress · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DG

Quote:

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Davies

Fitzpatrick of PBUC agrees with Evans - and me. Tag of a base is NOT the same as tag of a runner.
This is one of the times when the NHFS is out in front. (2-24-2)

See BRD section 483 for the full story.

But Evans said "Unlike a catch, a legal tag is based on the status of the ball at the time the runner or base is touched and not on the final proof of possession." This was under the definition for TAG, which included touching a base while holding the ball, or touching a runner with the ball or glove holding the ball.

What you're missing is the nature of a tag of a moving object as opposed to a stationary one: The fielder must have control of the ball during the tag, which is not instant but continues through the play. Let's say you see a fielder swipe tag a runner on his way to first, and the ball comes out: Now try to sell that the runner was out and the dropped ball means nothing.

JEA stands for Official Baseball Rules Annotated by Jim Evans: J(im) E(vans) A(nnotated). Jim Porter gave it the name when the book first surfaced on the internet.

Tim C · #25 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 12:57pm

I believe at the "Florida Classic" Jim Evans announced that it would soon be available on CD to the general public.

Tee

BigUmp56 · #26 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 04:38pm

It's available on pdf. I have a copy.

Tim.

briancurtin · #27 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BigUmp56
It's available on pdf. I have a copy.

Tim.

would you be interested in sharing that? i have plenty of webspace, and plenty of bandwidth to share if you are interested in making this available to others.

**assuming it doesnt break any licensing, etc. i have no idea how you got it, so i just mentioned that. if it would be pirating to do this, dont share it.

[Edited by briancurtin on Jan 17th, 2006 at 05:29 PM]

BigUmp56 · #28 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 05:46pm

Brian:

I left you a personal message on the ABUA board.

Tim.

socalblue1 · #29 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 07:43pm

Folks,

Sharing a copyrighted work without permission is against the law & may result in significant civil penalties.

I can assure you that Mr. Evans will protect his work and rights in this regard.

Dave Davies · #30 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 17, 2006, 08:24pm

Let me jump in on this. I have had a legal copy of the Annotated since 1993 and have put it on disk in Word and Wordperfect. I also have it on my laptop.

I, however, will not provide this body of work to anyone, paid or not.

The reason Jim didn't put the Annotated on disk in the first place was because of piracy concerns.

I would sincerely discourage anyone from providing this material at ANY cost to anyone.

If you DO provide illegal copies to others, just make sure I don't know about it.

Dave
******