CAN WE GO THROUGH THE RUNNER INTERFERENCE AGAIN? (NEW THREAD)

[TheBigEZ]

I would just like to comment on the great thread we had previously on this topic. I would just like to get one more clarification.

Gee wrote:
There are only two times a runner can get hit by a fair batted ball and not be out. 1. If the ball is deflected by a fielder, including the pitcher, before hitting the runner. and 2. If it has passed a fiedler after he has a reasonable chance to make the play (3 to 5 ft.) and then only if there is not another fielder directly behind the first fielder and the second fielder could have made the play.

I agree with one, but for the moment, disagree with # 2. And it could be because I am not familiar with FED. Are you talking about National Federation of High Schools? Because if you are, then I do know what you are talking about rule-wise and would have to disagree. Otherwise, I could be wrong. But anyway:

From what I see in my rule/case books, the ball only has to "pass" (as in have a reasonable chance, etc.) AN INFIELDER. Emphasis on the word "AN", which means ONE. With R2 on second base, B1 hits a grounder to the left side of the infield. F5, playing in front of the basepaths and in front of the runner, moves to his left to make an attempt on the ball. As he does, the ball goes RIGHT UNDER HIS GLOVE. F6 is behind the runner/basepaths and can make a play on the ball. But before it gets to him, the ball hits R2.

I would rule this a live ball. An infielder definitely had a reasonable attempt to make a play at the ball, but made an error. The second infielder, in my interpretation, is irrelevant in this ruling. Besides, a runner, realistically, should not have to alter his running motion, to allow for a fielder's error. Do you know what I mean?? I am interested in everyone's feedback.

[Gre144]

I like what Bob said about the string rule in Fed. If all the infielders are holding a string and the ball passes through the string and then hits the runner, the ball remains alive. If it hits the runner before passing through the string then the runner is safe.

Thanks Bob. You are a genius in explaining concepts in the easiest language possible.

Greg

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by TheBigEZ
(snip)

From what I see in my rule/case books, the ball only has to "pass" (as in have a reasonable chance, etc.) AN INFIELDER. Emphasis on the word "AN", which means ONE. With R2 on second base, B1 hits a grounder to the left side of the infield. F5, playing in front of the basepaths and in front of the runner, moves to his left to make an attempt on the ball. As he does, the ball goes RIGHT UNDER HIS GLOVE. F6 is behind the runner/basepaths and can make a play on the ball. But before it gets to him, the ball hits R2.

I would rule this a live ball. An infielder definitely had a reasonable attempt to make a play at the ball, but made an error. The second infielder, in my interpretation, is irrelevant in this ruling. Besides, a runner, realistically, should not have to alter his running motion, to allow for a fielder's error. Do you know what I mean?? I am interested in everyone's feedback.

In the play you describe, the runner is out. 8-4-2k "and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play."

The "string theory" I described assumed that no fielder "had a play".

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by TheBigEZ

I would just like to comment on the great thread we had previously on this topic. I would just like to get one more clarification.

The rulings for OBR and FED are different concerning this scenario. Gee has given you the strict OBR interpretation, but it does not hold water when doing a FED game. In FED, there is no mention of the 3-5 ft. rule which Gee is quoting.

A good example of the contrast in rulings between OBR and FED can be seen in Gee's example of the ultimate of ultimate shifts.

Assume Derek Jeter on second and Bernie Williams up at bat.
The Bosox put on the shift and with the exception of the left fielder everyone is on the right side of the infield.

Bernie hits a grounder in the hole (where F6 normally would be) btween second and third (left side of infield) and ball hits Derek Jeter.

What's the call?

If your playing using OBR - Derek would be called out.

If your playing using FED - Play on (FED rule 8-4-2k Case-Book Play 8-4-2 Sitch H).

Pete Booth

[Gee]

Originally posted by TheBigEZ
I would just like to comment on the great thread we had previously on this topic. I would just like to get one more clarification.

Gee wrote:
There are only two times a runner can get hit by a fair batted ball and not be out. 1. If the ball is deflected by a fielder, including the pitcher, before hitting the runner. and 2. If it has passed a fiedler after he has a reasonable chance to make the play (3 to 5 ft.) and then only if there is not another fielder directly behind the first fielder and the second fielder could have made the play.

I agree with one, but for the moment, disagree with # 2. And it could be because I am not familiar with FED. Are you talking about National Federation of High Schools? Because if you are, then I do know what you are talking about rule-wise and would have to disagree. Otherwise, I could be wrong. But anyway:

From what I see in my rule/case books, the ball only has to "pass" (as in have a reasonable chance, etc.) AN INFIELDER. Emphasis on the word "AN", which means ONE. With R2 on second base, B1 hits a grounder to the left side of the infield. F5, playing in front of the basepaths and in front of the runner, moves to his left to make an attempt on the ball. As he does, the ball goes RIGHT UNDER HIS GLOVE. F6 is behind the runner/basepaths and can make a play on the ball. But before it gets to him, the ball hits R2.

I would rule this a live ball. An infielder definitely had a reasonable attempt to make a play at the ball, but made an error. The second infielder, in my interpretation, is irrelevant in this ruling. Besides, a runner, realistically, should not have to alter his running motion, to allow for a fielder's error. Do you know what I mean?? I am interested in everyone's feedback.

------------------------
Seeing that you are interested in EVERYBODY's feedback, that would include me.

I was talking about OBR, Bob was talking about FED (National Federation of High Schools). In both plays in your quote the runner would be out using the OBR. They are both out using the FED too, simply because the string theory would have the second infielder WITHIN the string and the second infielder is the exception to the rule.

Peter again quotes Case Book Study 8-4-2 sitch H. That case has two sitches. A, is a deflected ball and B is with a drawn in infielder. Both of these sitches have been previously accepted and ommitted from this discussion.

I am a bit skeptical about the string theory because someone tried to convince me of that before and it was concerning OBR. Wrong. Since Bob states it has been accepted by FED, then that's the way it is. G.

[Gre144]

The "string theory" I described assumed that no fielder "had a play". [/B][/QUOTE]

So if the players don't have a play but the ball passes through the imaginary string before hitting the runner, would the runner be out or safe?



[Edited by Gre144 on May 30th, 2001 at 12:55 PM]

[Gee]

Originally posted by Gre144

The "string theory" I described assumed that no fielder "had a play".

So if the players don't have a play but the ball passes through the imaginary string before hitting the runner, wouldn't the runner be out or safe?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Bob has previously stated, if the ball goes by the string it doesn't matter if the infielder(s) had a chance to make a play or not, The runner is NOT OUT and the ball is in play. (FED). G.

[Gre144]

So what Bob is saying is that it is irrelevent if the defense has a chance to make a play or not. The only important factor is whether the ball passes through the imaginary string before hitting the runner (the runner is safe) or the ball passes the imaginary string after hitting the runner(the runner is out). Am I interpretating his string theory correctly for Fed rules?

Greg

[Steve Emerson]

You will find in every rule book the same quote that covers the possible runner interference. If in the Umpire's Judgement another fielder could have made a play on the batted ball. Fed rule 8-4-2k explains this also look at 8-4-2g, it has it stated not once but twice, in the Umpire's Judgement, that will cover whatever call you make.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gre144
So what Bob is saying is that it is irrelevent if the defense has a chance to make a play or not. The only important factor is whether the ball passes through the imaginary string before hitting the runner (the runner is safe) or the ball passes the imaginary string after hitting the runner(the runner is out). Am I interpretating his string theory correctly for Fed rules?

Greg

The "theory" behind the rules is a little different.

In OBR, a general statement is that the runner is out if he interferes with a batted ball. The exceptions to the rule are if the ball is deflected, or if the runner could reasonably have expected a fielder to field the ball (that is, the ball passes through, or immediately by, the fielder). But, in an exception to the (fielding) exception, if another fielder has a play, the runner is still out. (There is no exception to the deflection rule -- but it applies only to the runner making contact with the ball, not to the runner making contact with a fielder.)

In FED, a general statement is that the runner is out if he interferes with a fielder making a play. (Note the distinction with the OBR ruling.) An assumption is that if the ball has not passed any fielder (the "string" test), then a fielder had a play, and the runner is out. If the ball has passed a fielder, then the umpire must judge whether another fielder had a play. This is the same as the OBR exception, except it applies anytime the ball has passed the string, not just when the ball passed "through or immediately by" a fielder. (FED also has the same exception as OBR for a deflected ball.)