Redass or Candyass?

[NSump]

Gang:

I am doing a little research for an upcoming article. You may have seen a preview of the debate "Big finger v. calm dismissal"

Without getting into my article too much, here is my very pointed view of this.

When it gets to the point that you need to toss a guy, don't be shy. Use the BIG FINGER and make sure everyone knows he is gone.

Doing so sends two messages.

1. YOU are in charge. Not the butthead who you just tossed.

2. More importantly, it sends the message to everyone else that certain behaviors will lead to the same fate.

Thoughts? Comments? When would a "calm ejection" be worthwhile (I can't remember ever doing it, so help me here!)

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by NSump
Gang:

Thoughts? Comments? When would a "calm ejection" be worthwhile (I can't remember ever doing it, so help me here!)

Generally, I agree. Especially with a seasoned umpire who practices good game management. When it becomes necessary, you need to let them know that you are in control of the game. I imagine this always applies to players. But if you are looking for an exception, how about a coach who is being tossed with his pitcher who just threw at the batter. If the coach (especially a respected one) has to go by mandate, but he has been trying to control his team, I see no reason to embarass him.

[RPatrino]

Nsump, when I was doing "little sprout" ball, our theory was that we ejected the youngins with the "calm ejection" and saved the fireworks for the jerk coach/manager. Our thinking was to save that little tyke a bunch of embarrasment and ego shattering.

Now, as I have moved up to doing games for thems that shave, there is no "calm ejection" in my ball bag anymore. Perhaps those "big finger" ejections I see now are those little buggers who we protected in youth ball??

Bob

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Like a fine wine or a beautiful woman, they both have their places.

The heave-ho is beautiful when a player/coach manager crosses the line, is loud and overbearing. There is little point to calmly dumping a guy who is engaged in an F-bomb laced tirade. Eject and walk away...get the game going once the mope is out of earshot.

That said, I've also ejected coaches who actually asked if they had been ejected. I would say yes and they would say that I 'didn't make the big point to the exit'. I would ask if they wanted me to do it or just let them leave with some dignity. On those occassions, the cause was enough to warrant ejection but not enough to escalate it to hystrionics. "Coach, are you done?" Yes. "Okay, then hit the shower, because I agree." No finger pointing or dirt kicking needed. If the others have to question what happened to the coach, then it was a pretty good job of rage control. Sometimes the coach wants to get run and needs the big heave to rally his team. Sometimes I comply and other times I say, "Carl, (or whatever his first name is) You're done here and I won't let you do this to the game. Now get off the field before this costs you." You may not be able to do this and this is not appropriate for all levels of baseball, but it works for me. I treat them with respect 99% of the time and work hard to earn theirs. Without fail, we both know if we've crossed a line.

A while ago, I posted a note on dealing with trouble. I received a couple of responses that said that they like that I alluded to police officers handling arrests. In other words, maintain control, ask questions and escalate your response in direct correlation to the threat that is perceived. Keep your voice low, that makes the other guy look like the aggressor, maintain eye contact (you are in charge after all) and communicate your beliefs. Just because the coach comes charging out spitting and steaming doesn't mean the guy is going to get run. Be aware that your response is even more critical than his. The NCAA has some great video on handling situations. In most cases, Yeast compliments the umpires on their restraint. He even says that the umpires may have been justified in ejecting the offenders even though they didn't. That is not a candyass, that is a pro in NCAA blues.

Dump him how you see fit; the Olympian arm throw or the simple wrist flick are both appropriate and preserve your authority. Use them well and hopefully not often.

[umpduck11]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Like a fine wine or a beautiful woman, they both have their places.

The heave-ho is beautiful when a player/coach manager crosses the line, is loud and overbearing. There is little point to calmly dumping a guy who is engaged in an F-bomb laced tirade. Eject and walk away...get the game going once the mope is out of earshot.

That said, I've also ejected coaches who actually asked if they had been ejected. I would say yes and they would say that I 'didn't make the big point to the exit'. I would ask if they wanted me to do it or just let them leave with some dignity. On those occassions, the cause was enough to warrant ejection but not enough to escalate it to hystrionics. "Coach, are you done?" Yes. "Okay, then hit the shower, because I agree." No finger pointing or dirt kicking needed. If the others have to question what happened to the coach, then it was a pretty good job of rage control. Sometimes the coach wants to get run and needs the big heave to rally his team. Sometimes I comply and other times I say, "Carl, (or whatever his first name is) You're done here and I won't let you do this to the game. Now get off the field before this costs you." You may not be able to do this and this is not appropriate for all levels of baseball, but it works for me. I treat them with respect 99% of the time and work hard to earn theirs. Without fail, we both know if we've crossed a line.

A while ago, I posted a note on dealing with trouble. I received a couple of responses that said that they like that I alluded to police officers handling arrests. In other words, maintain control, ask questions and escalate your response in direct correlation to the threat that is perceived. Keep your voice low, that makes the other guy look like the aggressor, maintain eye contact (you are in charge after all) and communicate your beliefs. Just because the coach comes charging out spitting and steaming doesn't mean the guy is going to get run. Be aware that your response is even more critical than his. The NCAA has some great video on handling situations. In most cases, Yeast compliments the umpires on their restraint. He even says that the umpires may have been justified in ejecting the offenders even though they didn't. That is not a candyass, that is a pro in NCAA blues.

Dump him how you see fit; the Olympian arm throw or the simple wrist flick are both appropriate and preserve your authority. Use them well and hopefully not often.

Well put, WWTB. I whole-heartedly concur.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Would that be after he's guilty of interfering and you call "Obstruction!"?

[JJ]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, there are several scenarios where even an out of control coach, who's having a bad day, could get a short "Time to go home, coach, let's do this with no big deal, I respect you to much to make you the center of a scene." [/B][/QUOTE]

I can't envision doing this - I don't eject very many people, and when I do it's because of the "scene" they've made. Even the ones I respect (for the most part) know that if they are dumped by me there will be no doubt in anyone's mind they've been dumped. I don't want to give the impression that "Gee, coach, you're a nice guy but you've stepped over the line a little so I'm going to have to, um, let you go for today...but I'll still respect you in the morning..."

JJ

[NSump]

JJ:

Agreed. The problem with those who "quietly" dump the coach is twofold.

First, if the coach has gone far enough to get dumped, he has usually done something to either embarass you or show you up. for that, he det's the big finger. I have never understood why any umpire would "quietly" dump comeone who has come out to make an *** of you.

Secondly, if nowbody knows he is gone, that sends the message that the behavior os OK....which by the ejection you have said it isn't.

BTW, this all pertains to men that shave. I agree that youth kids can be ejected with far less vigor. However, everybody still needs to know why the little **** is gone.

Finally, about the Yeast videos. I am a big fan of controlling the situation before it gets to an ejection. We can do a lot to calm a situation. BUT WHEN IT GETS TO AN EJECTION, then it needs your full effort.

Blaine

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

JJ,

I know you and respect where you work. Let me ask you a question; have you ever dumped a coach who was in the dugout? No one can see him red-assing you, so why use the demonstrative ejection? He wins and you look bad.

I proffer that a simple point at him and index finger flick is all it takes. He'll come out and everyone will know that he must have crossed the line somewhere. You remained cool and because you left your mask on, no one can read your lips. I know that you've seen this.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Dec 5th, 2005 at 10:22 PM]

[phillips.alex]

If i have known someone for years and they still don't know how to handle a baseball game, it is about time that i did some public lessons. Coaches should never be ejected except for two cases:

1) the rules warrant it (pitching at batters, etc.)
2) they have undermined the game

number 2 can be taken quite broadly, but it is not meant to be so. Clearly it is worth more to the players as well as a coach to be given a chance to control themselves.

just my two cents

[JJ]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
I know you and respect where you work. Let me ask you a question; have you ever dumped a coach who was in the dugout? No one can see him red-assing you, so why use the demonstrative ejection? He wins and you look bad.
[/B]

Even if the coach is in the dugout, I am demonstrative when I eject him. I want everyone, not just him, to know that he's crossed the line. If I try to do a "subtle" dump, the perception is that I would like him to "quietly" leave. He never will (leave quietly). I'd rather have a "show of force" up front on my end, so he'll know if he comes out for a piece of me he'll know I'm not intimidated by him.
Unfortunately, ejections are seldom neat, clean, and quiet. It would be wonderful to just use one finger and wave him gone...but I missed that class in "The Dark Arts".
JJ

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by phillips.alex
If i have known someone for years and they still don't know how to handle a baseball game, it is about time that i did some public lessons. Coaches should never be ejected except for two cases:

1) the rules warrant it (pitching at batters, etc.)
2) they have undermined the game

number 2 can be taken quite broadly, but it is not meant to be so. Clearly it is worth more to the players as well as a coach to be given a chance to control themselves.

just my two cents

The coaches and players should all know where the line is in regards to ejections by the time they reach the big diamond.

In my games, if they come charging at a crew member from the dugout or a coaches box, they're gone. Period. I'm not shy about how I let them know either. If they can't show me respect and learn to argue without crossing the line, then why should I show them respect when it's time for them to go.

Also, if it becomes personal or profane, they've worn out their welcome for the day, possibly more than that if they have to serve a suspension.

I don't eject often, but when I do, it's done the same way. I give em' the hook and walk away. If they follow I expect my partner to come in and walk their rat butt away.

Tim.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Fair enough, JJ, I suggested that there is a time and place for each ejection. Maybe I've been fortunate enough to see a few of each over the last few years. I hate to admit that I like the heave ho better, but the less dramatic one is refreshing.

[BigUmp56]

Thomas,

Maybe it's egomaniacal to eject early and often for inappropriate behavior, maybe it's not. Each of us has his/her own criterion we use to guage when an ejection is warranted.

To me, it's not a matter of being shown up as much as it is a matter of a known breach of protocol. The coaches insist on a high level of professionalism from umpires. I expect the same thing from them. They know where the line is, and they're the ones who decide to cross that line. It's always been my belief that we don't eject coaches, they eject themselves.


I don't see the need to be the nice guy and eject with any soft soap. I think it's best to be firm and definitive. You don't need to make a spectacle of yourself when you eject someone, but you still need to send a strong message so that someone else will not have to clean up after you the next time this guy decides to cross the line.

Tim.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

You are debating with someone who thinks umpires should wear white.