Correct call?

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

"Pete,

The reason the correct mechanic in this situation is to signal safe, is so as to not alert the defense of the miss of the base.

When a runner beats the ball to the bag, and misses the base as he passes it, he is in fact considered safe until the defense makes an unmistakeable appeal. On a close play like this, you would signal one way or another had the runner touched the base. If you don't signal anything, you're alerting the defense that somethings amiss."
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So what do you do when the runner crosses the plate but misses home? He crosses and misses, the other team knows it but the ball is still in the outfield and the runner is being mobbed by his teammates for scoring the lead run. Do you still signal safe or do you make no signal and "alert the defense" that he missed the plate? Maybe you just ignore it and make the "expected call". I like the players to make the expected play.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
"Pete,

The reason the correct mechanic in this situation is to signal safe, is so as to not alert the defense of the miss of the base.

When a runner beats the ball to the bag, and misses the base as he passes it, he is in fact considered safe until the defense makes an unmistakeable appeal. On a close play like this, you would signal one way or another had the runner touched the base. If you don't signal anything, you're alerting the defense that somethings amiss."
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So what do you do when the runner crosses the plate but misses home? He crosses and misses, the other team knows it but the ball is still in the outfield and the runner is being mobbed by his teammates for scoring the lead run. Do you still signal safe or do you make no signal and "alert the defense" that he missed the plate? Maybe you just ignore it and make the "expected call". I like the players to make the expected play.

WWTB,

It would depend on whether their was a force at the plate, no play at the plate, or a tag attempt at the plate on which mechanic to use. I suspect you already know this though.



On a force play at the plate, the umpire should signal safe if the runner beats the throw, even if the runner missed the plate, and wait for the appeal. The same mechanic should be used when there is no play at the plate. The "no call" at the plate is for a runner that misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag.

If you wan't to keep bringing up the "expected call" in each of your posts, I suggest you just put it in the form of a sig. We all know by now how you feel about this type of call. You won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind. Lets just A2D and move on.


Tim.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally posted by BigUmp56

WWTB,

It would depend on whether their was a force at the plate, no play at the plate, or a tag attempt at the plate on which mechanic to use. I suspect you already know this though.



On a force play at the plate, the umpire should signal safe if the runner beats the throw, even if the runner missed the plate, and wait for the appeal. The same mechanic should be used when there is no play at the plate. The "no call" at the plate is for a runner that misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag.

If you wan't to keep bringing up the "expected call" in each of your posts, I suggest you just put it in the form of a sig. We all know by now how you feel about this type of call. You won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind. Lets just A2D and move on.


Tim.

Do you own a TV? If the runner misses the plate on any of those plays, the home plate umpire does not signal safe and then reverse it on appeal. He stands there and waits for the action to end, then makes his call. It happened dozens of times this past season. By a highlight tape and watch the plays at the plate.

Bases loaded and the ball is hit to deep short, R3 misses the plate but is there five steps ahead of the throw to home. The catcher steps on the plate as he catches the late throw. What do you call?

Do you signal "Safe" on every runner crossing the plate, even those that aren't played on? That is what you wrote.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by BigUmp56



On a force play at the plate, the umpire should signal safe if the runner beats the throw, even if the runner missed the plate, and wait for the appeal. The same mechanic should be used when there is no play at the plate.

Tim.

I would have to disagree.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by PWL

We have several schools in our area. I go to this school because it is just down the road. I have been associated with the program for several years. This is just intra-squad scrimmaging. I'll go and call the plate on my own free time. Usually, I'll just have a group of freshmen and sophomores. Sometimes you will get coaches that are football coaches helping out for the extra money and want to learn if they are just starting out. We have pre-season scrimmages against other teams in different formats. It depends on how the teams want to work them. I just do it as a way to get ready for the season and a refresher course. It's no big deal really. Just getting some exercise, and explaining a few things to the kids. I like being on a ballfield after a long winter. What else can I say?

Okay, cool. We only work assigned scrimmages here, and we don't get paid for them, either. It's our "way of giving back", as we are told. Everybody gets 2 or 3 each before the pre-season tournaments begin. It sounds like the atmosphere where you work is less intense than here, where the coaches act like it's life or death. I envy you in that regard. In So Cal, every player thinks he's the next great superstar, and often, he is.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by BigUmp56

WWTB,

It would depend on whether their was a force at the plate, no play at the plate, or a tag attempt at the plate on which mechanic to use. I suspect you already know this though.



On a force play at the plate, the umpire should signal safe if the runner beats the throw, even if the runner missed the plate, and wait for the appeal. The same mechanic should be used when there is no play at the plate. The "no call" at the plate is for a runner that misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag.

If you wan't to keep bringing up the "expected call" in each of your posts, I suggest you just put it in the form of a sig. We all know by now how you feel about this type of call. You won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind. Lets just A2D and move on.


Tim.

Tim, I have to go with WWTB on this one. The safe signal when missing the base mechanic is only used at first base. The play at the plate is a different kettle of fish. You don't want to signal safe when the runner misses home plate, since he has no obligation to return to the plate, unlike the BR at first base. If you do not signal safe on the BR at first, F3 will pick up on it immediately and gain an unfair advantage over the BR, who has to return to first. A runner who misses home, on the other hand will either head to his dugout, or try to return to the plate to touch it. If you call him safe, the runner may think that he did touch the plate, and not try to return, and the catcher may believe the same thing, and not try to tag the runner for the appeal. Is any of this making sense? It's late, and I'm a bit punchy.

Anyhow, the proper mechanic for the runner missing home plate is no signal or call until the action is over. Much like the mechanic for oversliding at 2nd or 3rd.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Garth and Steve agreeing with me?

Isn't there a Ghostbusters line about dogs and cats living together? I'm buying a lottery ticket!

In the words of James Brown, "I feel good".

[jicecone]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Garth and Steve agreeing with me?

Isn't there a Ghostbusters line about dogs and cats living together? I'm buying a lottery ticket!

In the words of James Brown, "I feel good".

Hell, you may even want to change that name to,

ImWindyNoMore

Get yourself some "hushpuppies and SEE THE WORLD.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Justme
I forgot 8.2.3 Situation (page 62 of the FED case book

B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw.
RULING: B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on he runner and is the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

IIRC, the general concensus is that the case play posted above is left over from the days of the FED's "accidental appeal." It should have been removed (or changed) when the rule changed.

A little later in the case book, you'll see similar plays where the ruling is "this is not an appeal."

[Tim C]

I also agree with Windy.

I agree with Bob, this error has been pointed out time and time again (and confirmed by the FED editors).

I agree with Brian -- I stayed out of the thread initally because the subject has been done over-and-over.

T

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 16th, 2005 at 09:23 AM]

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Thank you, I too sighed. Mine was out of delight, but it was a sigh nonetheless.

Pete correctly stated that this was a retread a while ago. It was still a good topic for new officials. Believe it or not, many don't have a BRD, J/R, PBUC or BUD manual to fall back on. I would venture to say that more than a few people visit here to read without felling the urge to sign up. For those few, I'm happy that we could clarify a curious call. For TAC, I'm with you about it being beaten to death. Isn't it five o'clock somewhere?

Hush puppies??? Someday I'm trading in my plate shoes for a pair of flip flops and a stretch of sand.

[Justme]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

IIRC, the general concensus is that the case play posted above is left over from the days of the FED's "accidental appeal." It should have been removed (or changed) when the rule changed.

A little later in the case book, you'll see similar plays where the ruling is "this is not an appeal."

Bob:
I agree that the "accidental appeal" should be removed or changed but it hasn't been so we are obligated to call our games per the book.

I read further in the case book, as you suggested, but could not find where it disallowed the "accidental appeal." Could you please give me the situation number?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Justme
Bob:
I agree that the "accidental appeal" should be removed or changed but it hasn't been so we are obligated to call our games per the book.

I read further in the case book, as you suggested, but could not find where it disallowed the "accidental appeal." Could you please give me the situation number?

Sorry, but my books are away for the winter. Try 3 or four pages later, on the right hand side of the page. I might get ambitious enough to pull them out.

Also, I think there's a difference between calling a rule that we don't like (we should do so) and enforcing a case play that's in clear contradiction to the rule book (we should use the rule book). I recognize that sometimes the distinction isn't clear, but I think it is clear in this instance.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Thank you, I too sighed. Mine was out of delight, but it was a sigh nonetheless.

Pete correctly stated that this was a retread a while ago. It was still a good topic for new officials. Believe it or not, many don't have a BRD, J/R, PBUC or BUD manual to fall back on. I would venture to say that more than a few people visit here to read without felling the urge to sign up. For those few, I'm happy that we could clarify a curious call. For TAC, I'm with you about it being beaten to death. Isn't it five o'clock somewhere?

Hush puppies??? Someday I'm trading in my plate shoes for a pair of flip flops and a stretch of sand.

To all the good folks who are tired of retread threads:

Retreads are unavoidable. They are not just for new officials, they are for officials who are new to forums. I for one, couldn't care less what McGriffs (barf), or ezteamz, or other forums have. This is the best one, and along with the ABUA site, are the two I spend my time on.

The search function on this site is disabled, so finding a similar thread is a tedious process. Most people have not stumbled upon this particular thread on this, or any other board. So to those of us in that group, it is a brand new bag, Papa. That was for Windy, er...James Brown.

[Justme]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Sorry, but my books are away for the winter. Try 3 or four pages later, on the right hand side of the page. I might get ambitious enough to pull them out.

Also, I think there's a difference between calling a rule that we don't like (we should do so) and enforcing a case play that's in clear contradiction to the rule book (we should use the rule book). I recognize that sometimes the distinction isn't clear, but I think it is clear in this instance.

I guess that I am just getting old.... I can't seem to find the requirement for a verbal appeal on a live-ball. I must be missing something since most of you say that it is required.

When I look at the rule book under Appeal Procedures and Guidelines (page 48 of the FED rule book) it doesn't mention a verbal appeal being required and that seems to agree with the case book (8.2.3).

What am I missing? I'd like to understand this because I have called runners out who have missed 1B (and not tried to go to 2B) when F3 has tagged the runner or just stepped on 1B with the ball in his possession.