Correct call?

[Pete in AZ]

Rich, I have a J/R manual and know what they say. I am confused because I saw two plays this year that had MLB umpires not call it that way. Both involved stumbles over first base and made the SC top plays of the day. In both, first was not touched. In one, the 1B slapped his mitt on first and the umpire called the runner out after he was rolling well past the base. In the other, the umpire called him out after Pujols was told by his pitcher that the guy never touched. He spun around and tagged him while he was laying on the ground in foul territory. He was called out.

The J/R mechanic doesn't make sense for little kids if they don't call it that way in the pros that's all. I respect your opinion, and know why it could be called that way, but it wasn't called in the pros and shouldn't be called like that for the little ones. It's a time waster.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally posted by jicecone

Pete , you are way off here. Our signal has nothing to do with this. In accordance with the rules, a missed base is a running error that must be appealed by the defense, unmistakably. Yes in actuallty the ball beat him to the base but the rules tell you to consdiderthat runner as safe until appealed.

Now our job is to enforce the rules, not how we feel about them.

Like an "expected call" or a missed home plate on a home run?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by jicecone

Bob, I have to go along with Rich on this. In fact ,this was changed in Fed ball just 2 years ago and all codes (Fed., NCAA,OBR) now are the same. Unmistakeable appeal is exactly what it means now.

Contrary to your belief, malpractice is exactly what you are performing by calling the BR out.

j-ice, please look at Fed Rule 8-2-3, APPEAL PROCEDURES AND GUIDELINES, #2. This is located on page 48 of the 2005 rule book. Then read the NOTE, located at the end of the PENALTY (Art.1-5) section. Then go to the 2005 Fed Case Book, page 62, and find 8.2.3 Situation. In fact, hell, let's all go look this up.

I want to know where the words unmistakable appeal are located. If someone could point me in that direction, I would be much obliged.

[BigUmp56]

Pete,

The reason the correct mechanic in this situation is to signal safe, is so as to not alert the defense of the miss of the base.

When a runner beats the ball to the bag, and misses the base as he passes it, he is in fact considered safe until the defense makes an unmistakeable appeal. On a close play like this, you would signal one way or another had the runner touched the base. If you don't signal anything, you're alerting the defense that somethings amiss.

I don't remember this being discussed on McGriff's. Even if it was, due to the poor quality of the poster's there, I doubt it recieved any real solid input.

I do remember a discussion about what would constitute an unmistakeable appeal on a play at third with continuing action.

That play went something like this:

R1, R2 - 1 out. B1 hits a trouble ball to left. F7 misplays the ball. R2 rounds third but misses the bag. F7 fires to F2 in an attempt to retire R2. R2 beats the throw and steps on the plate. F2 fires the ball back to F5 who puts a tag down on R1 coming into third, and in doing so, steps on third.

No verbal indication of an appeal is made. The question was, do we have an unmistakeable appeal for the third out?

BTW- Glad you decided to leave that disgrace of a board!

Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Carefull Steve!

We posted similar reponses 1 minute a part from one another.
Some might think we are one person again!!



Tim.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

j-ice, please look at Fed Rule 8-2-3, APPEAL PROCEDURES AND GUIDELINES, #2. This is located on page 48 of the 2005 rule book. Then read the NOTE, located at the end of the PENALTY (Art.1-5) section. Then go to the 2005 Fed Case Book, page 62, and find 8.2.3 Situation. In fact, hell, let's all go look this up.

I want to know where the words unmistakable appeal are located. If someone could point me in that direction, I would be much obliged.

Thats what happens when you have too many reference books. I'm looking at the 2004 BRD which exected the 2005 rules to conform completely at all levels. Well that didn't happen and I didn't follow up correctly. If I would have grabed the 2005 edition I would have seen that. My bad.

[SanDiegoSteve]

No problem jicecone, I don't have all the J/R's, or any of Carl's BRD's to reference. The Jaska/Roder, and other similar interpretation manuals, are only opinions on the rules. They are not hard and fast rules, they are guidelines to go by. There may be 237 errors in the OBR, but that's the book we get to go by, here in lowly amatuer land.

Steve

[Justme]

FED Standard Rule 8-2 Penalty (Art 1-5) states in part:

"A live-ball appeal may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early." It goes on the say.....

"Note: When a play by its very nature is imminent and obvious to the offense, defense and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary, e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress."

Also, the appeal procedures and guidelines referenced on page 48 of the Fed standard does not indicate the need for a verbal appeal for a live ball appeal but does for a dead ball appeal.


OBR 7.10

States in part: “An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.”

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Pete in AZ

Actually Steve, mine did. In the play I suggested the step on 1st would be the appeal, not the tag, since you indicated that you would have signalled safe as he passed the bag. If you would have waited and not signalled, it would have been the proper call all along, epsecially with younger players. The ball beat him to the base. There is a reason why they have to touch 1st and not just run over it.

I've seen some of your comments and they are no better than what I've seen over on McGriffs. You like to take shots at people who disagree with you. You did it over there too.

[Edited by Pete in AZ on Nov 15th, 2005 at 07:16 PM]

Okay, I already replied to this, but somehow when I went to edit my post, it got erased. Boo-hoo.

Pete, in case you didn't read that post, I have never, ever written anything on the McGriffs board, except once, to tell people not to use my moniker for their filthy, disgusting humor. Anything else you saw by SanDiegoSteve was written by one or more of the anonymous creeps over there.

What I was going to add is that I didn't mean that you call safe as the runner passes the base. You would use normal, delayed timing, just like any other safe/out call.

Looking back on it, it wasn't worth erasing my post for.

[Justme]

I forgot 8.2.3 Situation (page 62 of the FED case book

B1 hits a slow roller to F5 and arrives safely but misses first base. F3 catches the ball with his foot off the base and casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw.
RULING: B1 is out. Because a force play is being made on he runner and is the result of continuing action, F3 is required to appeal the missed base and does so by stepping on the missed base.

[briancurtin]

i think ive seen this thread 10 times on various boards and it always ends up going 2+ pages...for no reason.

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by PWL
Before the season starts, I go out to the local high school, and work a little intra-squad scrimmage action. I also take the time to go over with all the teams what they need to do in situations like this. I tell them to always verbalize what they are appealling, no matter what, so the umpire will always know what is going on.

I also go around and explain obstruction and contact rules to them. Fake tags and sliding rules, stuff like that. Most are already familiar with them, some are not. Anyway, a little refresher course goes a long way not only for the players, but for me as well. It also helps the newer coaches understand a little better also.

if you were as good as lance cokalinski, you would do this all during batting practice before the game. he teaches this at his school i believe.

[BigUmp56]

Brian,

You and I both know that if PWL were Lance, he wouldn't be sober enough to make a coherent post any time soon!

Hic....Up.......

Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by PWL
Before the season starts, I go out to the local high school, and work a little intra-squad scrimmage action. I also take the time to go over with all the teams what they need to do in situations like this. I tell them to always verbalize what they are appealling, no matter what, so the umpire will always know what is going on.

I also go around and explain obstruction and contact rules to them. Fake tags and sliding rules, stuff like that. Most are already familiar with them, some are not. Anyway, a little refresher course goes a long way not only for the players, but for me as well. It also helps the newer coaches understand a little better also.

PWL, you say you go the the local high school? Is it the only one? How many high schools are there where you live? Your rules seminar may work in a small town, but not in a large metro area.

Here in S.D., our association supplies umpires to 81 high schools county wide. It would be impractical to go around giving a clinic on how to play baseball. By the time the kids around here get to the JV level, they are expected to already know how to play. It is the responsibility of the coaches, not the officials, to educate the players. The coaches here are experienced, not new to the job. We as umpires are supposed to hit the ground running from day 1. The coaches here treat even scrimmage games like the playoffs. They certainly would not even listen to any kind of instruction from the umpires. Now, if I'm working Pinto League, on the other hand, sure, I'll explain obstruction and interference, and other things in an instructional manner. Any level above that, however, and we leave it to the coaches.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by briancurtin
i think ive seen this thread 10 times on various boards and it always ends up going 2+ pages...for no reason.

Brian, not everyone has seen this thread before, obviously. I mean just look at the differences in opinion we're getting!