Force Still In Effect?

[chuckfan1]

Heres one for fun...Have canvassed a few others, and am not getting a majority opinion...what say you?

No outs. R1 off on the pitch. R1 is just touching 2nd when he thinks line drive will be caught by F9. R1 heads back to 1st. After a few steps back towards 1st, R1 sees F9 did not make the catch. F9 now throws to F6 covering 2nd. Is the force still in effect?, Or does F6 need to tag R1, as there was an initial touch of 2nd by R1?

[Rich Ives]

There is no need for debate. The answer is right in the rules.

7.08 e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

[PWL]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
There is no need for debate. The answer is right in the rules.

7.08 e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

This is for oversliding or overrunning the base, and the runner reaches the next base before a fielder tags him or the base. The proper mechanic is for the BU to call safe on a play like this. The defense should then appeal to BU that runner missed base. They can do this by either touching the missed base with ball or by simply tagging the runner before he returns to base. BU will then give the out signal.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by PWL

This is for oversliding or overrunning the base, and the runner reaches the next base before a fielder tags him or the base. The proper mechanic is for the BU to call safe on a play like this. The defense should then appeal to BU that runner missed base. They can do this by either touching the missed base with ball or by simply tagging the runner before he returns to base. BU will then give the out signal.

Wrong PWL,

Re-read the question. Rich's answer is correct. The force is reinstated when R1 retreated back towards first. Color that runner out on the force.

[mcrowder]

Think of it this way - once R1 has retreated toward 1st base, where can he go? Not to first base - BR is there. Not to third base - he legally must touch 2nd base before touching third or be subject to appeal. He's still FORCED to advance to 2nd base - thus the FORCE is reinstated.

PS - not sure why one would think 7.08E doesn't apply to this situation. This is EXACTLY where 7.08E applies.

[PWL]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Wrong PWL,

Re-read the question. Rich's answer is correct. The force is reinstated when R1 retreated back towards first. Color that runner out on the force.

I believe you are wrong. It says after touching the next base and retreating the force is reinstated. Where did I say anyone touched a base. In your haste to make judgment, you erred. Thanks for playing. What do we have for out contestants today?

[PWL]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Think of it this way - once R1 has retreated toward 1st base, where can he go? Not to first base - BR is there. Not to third base - he legally must touch 2nd base before touching third or be subject to appeal. He's still FORCED to advance to 2nd base - thus the FORCE is reinstated.

PS - not sure why one would think 7.08E doesn't apply to this situation. This is EXACTLY where 7.08E applies.

Read previous post. Thank you.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by PWL

I believe you are wrong. It says after touching the next base and retreating the force is reinstated. Where did I say anyone touched a base. In your haste to make judgment, you erred. Thanks for playing. What do we have for out contestants today?

I'll play!

You responded to Rich by telling him that the rule he cited did not apply here. Rich cited the exact rule and went so far as to embolden the text that was applicable to the question that was asked. You said that the rule he cited was for over running or oversliding a base. Where you came up with that, I don't know. It had nothing to do with the initial question. Then you went on to discuss this as an appeal play. In this you are wrong as well. This is not the proper mechanic for oversliding the base or over running the base. You referring to the mechanic used for a missed base, which this is not.

Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by chuckfan1
Heres one for fun...Have canvassed a few others, and am not getting a majority opinion...what say you?

No outs. R1 off on the pitch. R1 is just touching 2nd when he thinks line drive will be caught by F9. R1 heads back to 1st. After a few steps back towards 1st, R1 sees F9 did not make the catch. F9 now throws to F6 covering 2nd. Is the force still in effect?, Or does F6 need to tag R1, as there was an initial touch of 2nd by R1?

Hey PWL,

Are you really as dumb as you sound in your witty retorts? I'm beginning to think so.

I didn't rush to judgment, nor did I err.

Read chuckfan1's post very carefully, and you will see that R1 touched 2nd base, and then retreated. What part of that don't you get? The force is reinstated because R1 has already touched 2nd, and has retreated. I'm saying it again so maybe you'll get it.

This ain't a freakin' quiz show, and you ain't the Quizmaster, and I ain't your contestant. But you can bet if I was a coach in one of your games, you would finally get that ejection.

[mcrowder]

PWL - what the hell are you talking about?

You ask: "Where I say anyone touched a base.?" Uh - you didn't (and then you became a condescending jaggass). This wasn't your post. The original post says, "R1 is just touching 2nd when he thinks line drive will be caught by F9. R1 heads back to 1st."

What part of "JUST TOUCHING 2nd" is not clear enough for you to see that the runner touched a base?

[greymule]

Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

[PWL]

Originally posted by BigUmp56

I'll play!

You responded to Rich by telling him that the rule he cited did not apply here. Rich cited the exact rule and went so far as to embolden the text that was applicable to the question that was asked. You said that the rule he cited was for over running or oversliding a base. Where you came up with that, I don't know. It had nothing to do with the initial question. Then you went on to discuss this as an appeal play. In this you are wrong as well. This is not the proper mechanic for oversliding the base or over running the base. You referring to the mechanic used for a missed base, which this is not.

Tim.

Where did I say the rule was wrong? I never said anything about touching the base either. Your problem is you just like to see how smart you are. A force play is a force play. If all you have to do is sit by a computer all day with stacks of rules books and manuals. I feel sorry for you. I never referred to the original play. You can have force play with just a BR at 1B. If you don't make this call your coaching. I can hardly wait for your next smarta$$ relpy BigDump. C-YA.

[PWL]

Originally posted by mcrowder
PWL - what the hell are you talking about?

You ask: "Where I say anyone touched a base.?" Uh - you didn't (and then you became a condescending jaggass). This wasn't your post. The original post says, "R1 is just touching 2nd when he thinks line drive will be caught by F9. R1 heads back to 1st."

What part of "JUST TOUCHING 2nd" is not clear enough for you to see that the runner touched a base?

I'll use your excuse when I FUGG UP. Sorry, I was doing too many things at once.

[GarthB]

This may be the fastest a thread has gone to hell in a long time, and I'd just like to point out that Tee, Carl, Windy, Jeff, Fronheiser and I were not involved in anyway.

Carry on.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by PWL

Sorry Augie Donatelli,
I read the post. I wasn't referreing to that play. A simple play at play at 1B is a force also. Your just in such a big hurry to show how damn smart you are, you start talking out the side of you mouth. I saw where you may not umpire next year. What's the matter? Your mother throwing you out of the house, and making you get a real job?

I have a couple of points. (Garth: I hope I don't send this thread farther into the abyss.)

1. There is no force play at first, Bfair to the contrary notwithstanding. That's why the book says runs don't score if the third out is: (1) a force play; OR (2) the failure of the batter-runner to touch first base safely.

2. Some seemed worried that the force was not reinstated if the runner retreating didn't touch the force base. That's a crock of.... Well, that's inaccurate. The runner's position on the bases determines whether a force is in effect. P-who is arguing that a runner between second and first must be tagged for an out regardless of the fact that the batter-runner is not out.

I think he's realized he's wrong and is trying to wiggle, wriggle out. Like the guy who opposes verbal obstruction, this guy is "alone, alone, all, all alone, alone on a...."