BR Abandonment vs Force-outs

[dddunn3d]

Here's a play that happened last night during my son's game(league championship, which his team won 11-2, but I digress):

R1,R2, no outs. B1 hits a Texas-leaguer to shallow LF. F6 races back, stretches out, and gloves the ball but drops it as he falls to the ground. U3 calls "safe, no catch," but not very demonstrative. No IFF called because of the extraordinary effort to even get to the ball.

Runners hold thinking it was caught. (F6 is shielding the runner's view of the ball on the ground.) BR actually trots back to his dug-out(1B side) thinking he's out. F6 gets up, throws to F5, starting the triple play.

Here's my question:

If the BR entered the dug-out before the above action, being called out for abandonment, does that remove the forces at 2B and 3B? I believe it does.

However, here's the wrinkle in this sitch:

Is the removal of the force-outs considered a timing play? I.E., if the BR reaches his dug-out after R2 is forced at 3B, but before R1 is forced at 2B, does F4 now have to tag R1?

[jicecone]

"Is the removal of the force-outs considered a timing play? I.E., if the BR reaches his dug-out after R2 is forced at 3B, but before R1 is forced at 2B, does F4 now have to tag R1?"

No, the removal of the force out is not considered a timing play. The force on R1 & R2 can not be removed until the BR's out at first base, is recorded.

Now, if there were 2 outs and R1 abandoned their effort to get to second and was delared out for abandonment, then R2's run would score, if it was registered before the umpire declared R1 out. (This would be a timing play)
The defense would then have to appeal for an advantageous 4th out at second, to record the force out, and then the run would not count.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Here's a play that happened last night during my son's game(league championship, which his team won 11-2, but I digress):

R1,R2, no outs. B1 hits a Texas-leaguer to shallow LF. F6 races back, stretches out, and gloves the ball but drops it as he falls to the ground. U3 calls "safe, no catch," but not very demonstrative. No IFF called because of the extraordinary effort to even get to the ball.

Runners hold thinking it was caught. (F6 is shielding the runner's view of the ball on the ground.) BR actually trots back to his dug-out(1B side) thinking he's out. F6 gets up, throws to F5, starting the triple play.

Here's my question:

If the BR entered the dug-out before the above action, being called out for abandonment, does that remove the forces at 2B and 3B? I believe it does.

However, here's the wrinkle in this sitch:

Is the removal of the force-outs considered a timing play? I.E., if the BR reaches his dug-out after R2 is forced at 3B, but before R1 is forced at 2B, does F4 now have to tag R1?

This is an interesting one.

I have always been of the opinion that the rule allowing outs to be recorded for abandonment ONLY applied to runners who have reached first.

OBR 7.08(a)(2) Any runner is out when, after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base.

Under that same rule there is the well known APPROVED RULING that covers the special instance when the BR enters the dugout after an uncaught third strike. I suspect the reason they had to have that APPROVED RULING is because the rule, itself, does not specifically cover abandonment issues with regards to a BR who has not reached first.

Unless there is some special interpretation that I'm too lazy to look for at this moment, it's not even clear that a BR is out simply by virtue that he enters the dugout on a fair batted ball before advancing to and touching first.

For many years, a runner who "scored", yet missed the plate, was allowed to enter the dugout, realize his mistake, emerge from the dugout and retouch the plate. Any subsequent appeal that he missed the plate would be denied.

That is no longer the case, however. Runners who "score", yet miss the plate, can no longer correct their baserunning error once they've entered the dugout.

It only seems logical that a BR who enters the dugout as in your example should be out; but, unless there is some interpretation saying so (and there probably is), I don't think it's easy to support from the black & white of the rulebook.

Assuming that a batter *can* enter the dugout on his way to first, that would mean the forces *were* in tact.

If you think about it - it seems more fair (especially to the defense) that a BR *not* be able to remove force plays by entering his dugout. Such a BR could be put out at the leisure of the defense once other outs (force outs!) have been recorded - as in your example.

I'm not sure of the ruling, quite frankly, and I'd have to do a little research - that's why it's interesting.

I found this interesting article by Rick Roder, but it still doesn't address a BR who has neither struck out nor reached first when he enters the dugout.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 1st, 2005 at 10:44 AM]

[dddunn3d]

Emerling:
"If you think about it - it seems more fair (especially to the defense) that a BR *not* be able to remove force plays by entering his dugout."

I agree 100%. Consider this sitch (forgive the TWP aspects):

Bases loaded, no outs. B1 hits a slow roller to F6, who bobbles the ball, but manages to fire a bullet to F2 for the force out at home. All well and good, but BR sees that R3 is dead-meat, so he takes off for his dugout, reaching it before F6 makes his throw. If BR is called out for abandonment, then the force out at home becomes a tag play, which given the circumstances, is substantially more difficult to accomplish.

If we allow the forces to be removed by calling BR out for abandonment, then an unfair advantage is gained by unorthodox play by the offense.

[DG]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Emerling:
"If you think about it - it seems more fair (especially to the defense) that a BR *not* be able to remove force plays by entering his dugout."

I agree 100%. Consider this sitch (forgive the TWP aspects):

Bases loaded, no outs. B1 hits a slow roller to F6, who bobbles the ball, but manages to fire a bullet to F2 for the force out at home. All well and good, but BR sees that R3 is dead-meat, so he takes off for his dugout, reaching it before F6 makes his throw. If BR is called out for abandonment, then the force out at home becomes a tag play, which given the circumstances, is substantially more difficult to accomplish.

If we allow the forces to be removed by calling BR out for abandonment, then an unfair advantage is gained by unorthodox play by the offense.

This may be the best 3rd world play I have ever heard, a batter who is actually thinking about anything other than running to 1B after hitting a ball to SS.

[FVB9]

The answer is easy guys...don't call the abandonment.

You're going to take a triple play off the board because a batter had a brain fart and didn't run? If they fail to get one of the advancing runners, then at the end of playing action call the abandonment. The offensive player's actions caused this play to break down, he loses all benefit of the doubt. Find a way to penalize the offense in this one, not the defense.

[mcrowder]

It's not our job to "find a way to penalize" anyone. I'm kind of offended by the remark, in fact.

The question is --- what do the rules support?

Let's make this a little less 3rd world. R1, R2, 1 out. High pop up to medium CF. Batter, in disgust, heads straight for the dugout and enters it before CF makes a play. CF fails to make the catch, but recovers in time to fire to 2nd base just ahead of R1, and then F4 fires to first base. What do you have?

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
It's not our job to "find a way to penalize" anyone. I'm kind of offended by the remark, in fact.

The question is --- what do the rules support?

Let's make this a little less 3rd world. R1, R2, 1 out. High pop up to medium CF. Batter, in disgust, heads straight for the dugout and enters it before CF makes a play. CF fails to make the catch, but recovers in time to fire to 2nd base just ahead of R1, and then F4 fires to first base. What do you have?

8-4-3 DP. Abandonment, by rule, only applies to runners who have reached first base and entering the dugout is not directly relevant on a batted ball, only on a third strike not caught.

I have no problem with the concept of penalizing the offending team, but this isn't one of those places.

[dddunn3d]

My son's fall ball league this year experimented by having no coaches. The kids (10-12 yrs) ran the whole show: line-ups, positions, pitching changes, everything. They had a blast, and it was fun to watch them learn that managing a game involves paying more attention to what's going on than what they were used to.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
My son's fall ball league this year experimented by having no coaches. The kids (10-12 yrs) ran the whole show: line-ups, positions, pitching changes, everything. They had a blast, and it was fun to watch them learn that managing a game involves paying more attention to what's going on than what they were used to.

Now if we could just get them to do this at every level....

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by David Emerling

I found this interesting article by Rick Roder, but it still doesn't address a BR who has neither struck out nor reached first when he enters the dugout.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Roder has also had this to say, in the original Jaksa/Roder Manual:

By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a batter-runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B-R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B-R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

Roder has also had this to say, in the original Jaksa/Roder Manual:

By rule, a batter-runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a batter-runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B-R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B-R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball.

Thanks for doing the research, Dave.

I knew if I claimed I was too lazy to look it up (i.e. lack of time) that somebody would chime in. I suspected there was an official interpretation or authoritative opinion out there on this issue.

Like I said, it seems logical that such a runner would be out.

As "improbable" as Roder thought it might be in any other case other than an uncaught 3rd strike, the original example in this thread has a pretty good instance how it *could* (and did!) happen under other circumstances ... and for innocent reasons.

To answer the the original question, it all comes down to WHEN the umpire calls a BR for this "desertion". (I like that word because, when discussing a unique play like this, you have to use something other than "abandonment".)

Is he out the very instant he steps into the dugout?

Or, when the play is over (after force outs have been registered), and the umpire discovers that the BR has deserted, he then calls the BR, thereby not requiring the defense to take any action to register the out?

Although Roder's opinion specifically addresses the issue as to whether a deserting BR should be called out, it doesn't directly address the timing, which is critical in answering the original post.

Can the desertion on the part of the BR cause subsequent "force" outs to evaporate?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[mcrowder]

There will be those who say that "desertion" should be called AFTER the effects of the play are completed. In other words, the forces stay in effect even after BR has entered the dugout.

My question to those people would be, then... say BR enters the dugout on the play I described, and then upon seeing CF drop the ball, proceeds to first base. If you're keeping the forces in play, surely you must rule BR safe... but if you feel inclined to disallow BR's return to the field, then you must have noticed him leave PRIOR to the forceplays being played on, and can NOT allow the force.

An interesting conundrum, no doubt.

[BigUmp56]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PWL
I think people are reading a little too much into this. There is a live ball in play. As BU, I would be watching the ball and see where it is going first. I am not aware of any rule that says a player has to run to first to begin with.

Just record the out at 3B and 2B. The defense realizing no one is on 1B should just throw the ball over and record the out. I understand the issue is here is timing. However, this would be the last call I would make in the sequence since the ball is in play. If so, I don't think the force would be off until (A) the ball is thrown to 1B behind an advancing runner and actually touched with the ball in possession (B) the runner is tagged before reaching the base.

I would haggle with the rule part of it later. [/QUOTE



[Edited by BigUmp56 on Nov 3rd, 2005 at 03:28 PM]

[mcrowder]

PWL - when do you call a batter-runner out who fails to run on a D3K?

When he enters the dugout or takes his position in the field. Same thing applies to this batter-runner. (Desertion is not the same as abandonment).