BR Abandonment vs Force-outs

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
MLBUM considers a runner in the dugout to be out.

Really? Where do you find that?

Also: this is not a runner, but the batter-runner - a significant difference in many rules.

David - if you accept that BR is out because he entered the dugout, then YOU MUST allow the runners to return to their original bases (ie drop the forceouts), since there is no one FORCING them to advance anymore.

Not allowing BR to exit the dugout and go to first, but keeping the forces in place would be (as I was accused of earlier) having your cake and eating it too.

[Edited by mcrowder on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:18 AM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by David Emerling

So you're saying that a BR *can* cause force plays to evaporate by entering the dugout?

I was unaware of this MLBUM ruling. Because, a strict reading of OBR does not provide for any "automatic out" when a BR enters the dugout during live action.

Roder has something called "desertion" that causes a BR who goes to the dugout to be out but he does not seem to address the timing of the out. Also, he seems to subscribe to "desertion" an unwillingness to advance to 1st, implying that if a BR ignorantly entered the dugout and suddenly realized he was *not* out, that he *could* emerge from the dugout and advance to 1st. I'm not sure about that, though.

I can accept that the BR is out under any condition (which is what you claim the MLBUM says), however it is the TIMING of this out that is critical in the original play.

Frankly, I don't really know what to do about this situation which is why I'm intently following the thread.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Personally, as the Editor of Officiating.com, I've very sorry you "can't accept" that the batter-runner is out when he enters the dugout. (grin)

I have a suggestion. If you don't get an authoritative source from mcrowder (which you won't), and if this ever happens in your game (which it won't), just call him out and I'll bet TWO dollars to a penny that everybody accepts that as the legitimate outcome of the play.

Too stupid to run to first? Fugget about it.

[mcrowder]

Carl - do you then allow the runners to return to their original bases (i.e. drop the forceplay)? If not - why not - batter is out and no one is forcing them to advance anymore.

No - you won't get an authoritative source from me. It's my contention that this is not officially ruled on. You claim MLBUM has, but I've not seen that and apparently no one else has (if they had, they would have posted it). Please enlighten us if they have and show us where.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Really? Where do you find that?

Also: this is not a runner, but the batter-runner - a significant difference in many rules.

David - if you accept that BR is out because he entered the dugout, then YOU MUST allow the runners to return to their original bases (ie drop the forceouts), since there is no one FORCING them to advance anymore.

Not allowing BR to exit the dugout and go to first, but keeping the forces in place would be (as I was accused of earlier) having your cake and eating it too.

[Edited by mcrowder on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:18 AM]

A runner who has scored but missed the plate may not return to touch it. A BATTER-RUNNER whose third strike is not caught in flight is out when he reaches the dugout or steps of his bench. You can find the first in the MLBUM (look for it, it will do you good) and the second in the OBR (ditto my above remark).

I'm interested in only one issue: When is a batter out when he deserts first?

But, if he's out when he enters the dugout, which is the only sensible call, consecutive runners may do whatever turns them on. And they will be out only on a tag while off a base. Any base.

Frankly, I can't believe this is still being discussed by people who are supposed to know something about baseball. Consequently, I'll bow out now and leave the inmates in charge. (grin)

[Tim C]

I A2D. (I think and if I have followed the thread correctly.)

Play Situation:

Score is 4-4 in the bottom of the last inning. Home team has the bases loaded and one out.

Batter hits a perfect double play ball to F6 who shuffles to F4 to retire a legally sliding r1 who is being forced to second. F4 relays the ball to F3 and it appears that the batter is out by, hmmm 90 feet, because upon hitting the ball that batter-runner ran directly into the dugout (we have several dugouts in the PDX area that are less than 20' from home plate).

As the defense runs off the field hooping and hoolering because they stuffed the rally the plate umpire signals that r3 run counts and the game is over.

So the defense did nothing wrong. The turned a perfect double play BUT it appears that some people are saying the force is off when the BR entered the dugout.

I am having trouble buying into the reward to the offense that deliberately made the out.

What am I missing?

T

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:57 AM]

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Really? Where do you find that?

Also: this is not a runner, but the batter-runner - a significant difference in many rules.

David - if you accept that BR is out because he entered the dugout, then YOU MUST allow the runners to return to their original bases (ie drop the forceouts), since there is no one FORCING them to advance anymore.

Not allowing BR to exit the dugout and go to first, but keeping the forces in place would be (as I was accused of earlier) having your cake and eating it too.

[Edited by mcrowder on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:18 AM]

I'm not debating anybody on this issue. I'm just trying to understand it and am willing to be convinced either way. I find it very intersting especially since this play *did* happen in the context of something that *could* happen.

Originally, I said that I would allow the BR to emerge from the dugout if he promptly realized his mistake. I said that because I was unaware of any provision in OBR that states that he is automatically out. Now, I discover, that there is apparently something in the MLBUM that states the BR is, in fact, out for entering the dugout.

OK, fine, I can accept that.

But, is he out IMMEDIATELY? That's important because it determines the status of the force plays.

I don't think that aspect has been addressed by any official interpretation or authoritative opinion, has it?

Something just doesn't seem right about the defense having to keep tabs on the timing of the BR entering the dugout in order to determine whether they have tag the other runners or not.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Carl - do you then allow the runners to return to their original bases (i.e. drop the forceplay)? If not - why not - batter is out and no one is forcing them to advance anymore.

No - you won't get an authoritative source from me. It's my contention that this is not officially ruled on. You claim MLBUM has, but I've not seen that and apparently no one else has (if they had, they would have posted it). Please enlighten us if they have and show us where.

The satement that Carl makes is documented in the BRD that he puts out every year. He even added a statement where as "MLB doesn't change the rules, only the instructions to the umpires" and that is what causes arguments like this. I don't have a copy of the BRD at work so maybe Carl can post it. I'm suprised that all the readers of the BRD didn't jump on this statement.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
I A2D. (I think and if I have followed the thread correctly.)

Play Situation:

Score is 4-4 in the bottom of the last inning. Home team has the bases loaded and one out.

Batter hits a perfect double play ball to F6 who shuffles to F4 to retire a legally sliding r1 who is being forced to second. F4 relays the ball to F3 and it appears that the batter is out by, hmmm 90 feet, because upon hitting the ball that batter-runner ran directly into the dugout (we have several dugouts in the PDX area that are less than 20' from home plate).

As the defense runs off the field hooping and hoolering because they stuffed the rally the plate umpire signals that r3 run counts and the game is over.

So the defense did nothing wrong. The turned a perfect double play BUT it appears that some people are saying the force is off when the BR entered the dugout.

I am having trouble buying into the reward to the offense that deliberately made the out.

What am I missing?

T

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:57 AM]

Aren't you missing that the force was in effect at the time of the pitch?

You're saying that the batter-runner can reach the dugout (20 feet) in about 3 seconds.

If so, then I want to be his agent.

The umpire is the dumb schmuck (is that redundant?) here. He just didn't want to go an extra inning.

I hope he can call for assistance leaving the field.

Let's get serious here. You and I know that any umpire who permitted a player to return to the field for playing action after entering the dugout is in deep caca.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by PWL
I think people are reading a little too much into this. There is a live ball in play. As BU, I would be watching the ball and see where it is going first. I am not aware of any rule that says a player has to run to first to begin with.

Just record the out at 3B and 2B. The defense realizing no one is on 1B should just throw the ball over and record the out. I understand the issue is here is timing. However, this would be the last call I would make in the sequence since the ball is in play. If so, I don't think the force would be off until (A) the ball is thrown to 1B behind an advancing runner and actually touched with the ball in possession (B) the runner is tagged before reaching the base.

I would haggle with the rule part of it later.

I think I would handle it in the identical manner.

I guess, where I was initially wrong, in addition, I would have allowed the BR to emerge from the dugout and attempt to correct his misunderstanding as long as the play was still in progress. I would have only called him out (for desertion) if he remained in the dugout when all playing action has ended. But, like you said, that would probably be rendered moot by the defense throwing him out at 1st. THAT'S the out I would recognize as the final out in the sequence.

Apparently, the correct call is that the BR is out, no matter what, simply by virtue that he entered the dugout. Yet, that interpretation apparently doesn't say that the runner is out IMMEDIATELY in the context of the play we are discussing.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Aren't you missing that the force was in effect at the time of the pitch?

You're saying that the batter-runner can reach the dugout (20 feet) in about 3 seconds.

If so, then I want to be his agent.

The umpire is the dumb schmuck (is that redundant?) here. He just didn't want to go an extra inning.

I hope he can call for assistance leaving the field.

Let's get serious here. You and I know that any umpire who permitted a player to return to the field for playing action after entering the dugout is in deep caca.

Carl,

No. The original play (the first one in this thread) is as follows:


Here's a play that happened last night during my son's game(league championship, which his team won 11-2, but I digress):

R1,R2, no outs. B1 hits a Texas-leaguer to shallow LF. F6 races back, stretches out, and gloves the ball but drops it as he falls to the ground. U3 calls "safe, no catch," but not very demonstrative. No IFF called because of the extraordinary effort to even get to the ball.

Runners hold thinking it was caught. (F6 is shielding the runner's view of the ball on the ground.) BR actually trots back to his dug-out(1B side) thinking he's out. F6 gets up, throws to F5, starting the triple play.

Here's my question:

If the BR entered the dug-out before the above action, being called out for abandonment, does that remove the forces at 2B and 3B? I believe it does.

However, here's the wrinkle in this sitch:

Is the removal of the force-outs considered a timing play? I.E., if the BR reaches his dug-out after R2 is forced at 3B, but before R1 is forced at 2B, does F4 now have to tag R1?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[jicecone]

I guess I have to take the blame for this. on 10/30/05, one hour and forty two minutes after this original thread was posted, I answered it based upon BRD2005 pg. 256 Section 410 "Runner: Abandons Attempt To Run Bases." the note on page 257 specifically, address deserting vs abanonment.

Mabey I should have referenced this but, not in my wildest dreams did I figure it would have been carried on this long.

Color me amazed!!!!!!

[Tim C]

I am not being thickheaded I just am confused:

For a player to run 18 feet in three seconds is pretty easy. Mickey Mantle ran the 90'to first in 3.2 seconds. I am asking a batter to cover approximately 1/4 that distance in basically the same time.

Sooooo,

I took a break and drove over to one of my local PIL (High School Fields) and used a highly accurate measuring system (I place one foot in from of the other, counted the steps and then came back here and measured my shoe):

The dugout is 17'9" from home plate.

Now back to my situation:

By reading this entire thread again,it appears that some of the people posting feel that if the batter-runner ran directly to the dugout that the force out would be eliminated and a tag would have to be made.

1) Have I nterpreted this part of the thread correctly?

2) Did the bases being occupied, as in my original situation, at the time of the pitch make a difference?

3) If it did (see #2) then we appear, at first glance, to have two conflicting views.

Help me, Mr Wizard!!!!

I am lost and confused.

T

[mcrowder]

First, Carl - you are taking unrelated situations and applying them here. One is a runner who has crossed home plate and entered their dugout. The book doesn't say they are OUT for entering the dugout - it says they cannot reenter the field for the purposes of retracing their path. The other is a BR on a U3K - again, not the same sitch.

If you are having trouble solely with the timing of a BR making it into the dugout in 3 seconds (3 seconds is lot longer than you think), then use the alternate scenario of a popup to CF, with R1 and R2 - runners don't run, but CF doesn't catch the ball. CF fires to 2nd base to get the force on R1, but BR has given up the play and entered the dugout just ahead of the drop, and before the ball is thrown to 2nd base. Under your ruling, F4/F6 would have to tag the runner. I disagree with this wholely.

I state again - show us a rule that says that BR, on a hit ball, is out immediately upon entering the dugout.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Tim C
I am not being thickheaded I just am confused:

For a player to run 18 feet in three seconds is pretty easy. Mickey Mantle ran the 90'to first in 3.2 seconds. I am asking a batter to cover approximately 1/4 that distance in basically the same time.

Sooooo,

I took a break and drove over to one of my local PIL (High School Fields) and used a highly accurate measuring system (I place one foot in from of the other, counted the steps and then came back here and measured my shoe):

The dugout is 17'9" from home plate.

Now back to my situation:

By reading this entire thread again,it appears that some of the people posting feel that if the batter-runner ran directly to the dugout that the force out would be eliminated and a tag would have to be made.

1) Have I nterpreted this part of the thread correctly?

2) Did the bases being occupied, as in my original situation, at the time of the pitch make a difference?

3) If it did (see #2) then we appear, at first glance, to have two conflicting views.

Help me, Mr Wizard!!!!

I am lost and confused.

T

Tim,

Oftentimes the discussions amongst umpires are completely academic. Those academic discussions/debates force us to research and address points that are frequently applicable to less academic, and more practical situations. In other words, we glean bits of information from the hypothetical situation and apply them to real situations.

This is why discussing hypothetical plays have value and to dismiss them as Third World Plays that could never happen completely misses the point.

Saying how something doesn't seem possible (or likely) doesn't help with the salient issues very much.

In fact, this thread started with a situation that involved these issues. It really happened!

The batter thought he was out on a flyball so he just gave up and went headed toward the dugout. I've seen that before.

The runners held up, thinking it would it would be caught. I've seen that before.

The ball was dropped in such a way that it was not immediately apparent to the runners. I've seen that before.

The outfielder recovered the ball and attempted to "force out" the runners. I've seen that before.

But the BR is *already* in the dugout which, by the way, would not necessarily take great speed, nothwithstanding your "study" of how long it took you to reach the dugout.

THIS, I've never seen before. But I can certainly see how it could happen.

The questions are ...

1. Is the BR automatically out for entering the dugout?

2. If so, does this out become effective the very instant the BR enters the dugout - thus eliminating all force plays?

3. If not, can the BR *ever* come out of the dugout and proceed to 1st?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[DG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Emerling
[B]

The questions are ...

1. Is the BR automatically out for entering the dugout?

2. If so, does this out become effective the very instant the BR enters the dugout - thus eliminating all force plays?

3. If not, can the BR *ever* come out of the dugout and proceed to 1st?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

1) Yes
2) Yes, but it does not eliminate force plays.
3) See answer to 1)

Of course these answers have already been provided...

[Edited by DG on Nov 11th, 2005 at 11:42 PM]